Having a girl will divide us

[CrunchyCrump]

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

I’ve worked with many different faiths including Muslims from different countries and have discussed sometimes faith questions I might have.

I wouldn’t say I’d leave your DH OP but I’d be having a big discussion with him about these issues and also informing myself.

Maybe it’s cultural due to his country’s interpretation of the holy book.

It depends really as I’ve known one lovely Indian young woman who coveted everything, dressed modestly and yet had a boyfriend (this was a big secret for her family). On the flip side I’ve spoken to young women eg about honour killings and both of them were in favour, they didn’t advocate it as such but certainly said they saw nothing wrong in it.

Your DD at the end of the day, should decide if she wants to follow Islam, cover her hair, have an arranged marriage etc. If she doesn’t want to do any of this she should be allowed not to do so and no criticism from her DF over this.

He hasn't listened to you.

Presumably he will listen to his religion, so raise your daughter the way you know is right and let him take his punishment from them.

Any difficulties that creates for him are his problem, not hers and not yours.

Yes, he has a choice to make. If he doesn't put his wife and daughter first, he's not worth having.

crunchycrump (your username is a bit of a tongue twister) look pretty much all mainstream religions are written down by men. Pretty much all the Old and New Testament were written by men (the occasional book by a woman was thrown in for good measure; but these books are still male advantage orientated), Buddhism,Sheikhism, Judaism, Islamism Christianism (I'm putting ism on everything to make it all equal) and a whole host of other religions are all designed to provide rules for how to live a good life, unfortunately along the way these very sound philosophies have been misinterpreted to suit the male narrative at the time, and and as a result certain religious minorities like to keep women as second class citizens, because it's suits the dominant male, sadly it's often detrimental to that religion too.
Then there is faith. Faith is a very different (whilst also quite subtle) kettle of fish from being religious. Having a faith can be very beneficial, people who have faith, without being a religious zealot, understand that whilst their faith is important to them, they are also wise enough to have a 'live and let live' attitude to other folk ...I'm not really describing this very well, but my point is your DH is either a zealot....in which case you will end up totally miserable as you and your dd will never make the required grade, OR yes he is genuine to his faith and as a result has the understanding that you and his daughter are separate beings to live their own lives... of the religions I have studied they give us 'free will' (regardless of male or female). You might want to remind your husband of this!
I'd suggest further talks with your husband, if he's not indoctrinated and still thinks for himself you should be able to argue effectively for your daughter's autonomy, if he remains unrelenting then I think you will have many battles ahead. Good luck.

@NothingIsWrong

Really sorry, but I would leave over this. I know that's a very hard choice to make, but I would NEVER accept my daughter being limited in her choices because of her sex.

This.

His beliefs don't trump yours.

I don’t have sympathy for you. I have sympathy for your daughter though.

You could take religion out of this question entirely, as it is simply the motivation for your husband’s selfish actions.

So as I see it, he considers he is more important than your daughter. He is willing to constrain his own daughter’s life AT LEAST by dictating her dress, and stopping her from marrying whoever she wants to. These are big constraints, and add nothing to his daughter’s life or her chances of being successful and happy.

He is willing to give his daughter this restricted life not because he believes she will have a better life this way, but so that he can be rewarded in heaven. If he was a good parent he would be more concerned about his child’s life chances than his own life after death.

This is no different from the way men we read about regularly on these boards oppress and diminish the lives of the women with whom they live, for other selfish reasons. It’s not about religion. It’s about women’s equality and right to a happy life.

Your husband is telling you clearly that your daughter is less important than he is - a stance no parent would condone.

Certain religions the men are allowed to marry outsiders the woman are not. Consequences are to be ostracized by while family or worse much much worse.

OP, I'm assuming your a reasonable and intelligent woman and that you gave this all some thought before your got married. I'd imagine you would have given it more thought than other people marry men from the same culture and religion as themselves. So, surely, you must have had good reasons to marry your husband and surely those reasons still stand?

Lots of women (and men?) are restricted from doing things by their religions and manage to have happy and fulfilling lives. Maybe your husbands good points outweigh the restrictions.
Look at all the zillions of posts where Mumsnetters have chosen complete losers for father of their children? Maybe having your husband as a Dad is preferable?

Its also a weird thought that you were happy to bring a boy into this religion? I think id find it harder to raise a boy to believe that he was allowed
More freedoms that females simply because he was male.

(BTW I'm an atheist and absolutely detest the sexist and controlling rules that go along with so many religions. I've no time for them at all but that's just me.)!

All mainstream religeons DON'T treat women as second class citiziens. Some do. But a lot of this treatment is cultural, as many pp have said, and not of the religeon.

People ascribe things to religeon as a cover for how they want to live. Religeon is blamed for wars and oppression which are manmade. (Their roots might be in religeon, 100s of years ago, but often religeon was used as an excuse from the start).

@teaandtoastwithmarmite I don’t know enough detail but Muslim men are allowed to marry what are termed People of the Book which means Christians, Jews and Sabians. As with all religions some men exploit women using religion as an excuse and historically men have found many ways to oppress women.

What is really worrying is the op is not in the UK so we have no idea what help is available to her. I met a woman through a friend who had escaped an arranged marriage many years ago. She had to cut off her entire family. I also shared a house with a Muslim when at University the way their families interpreted Islam was poles apart.

@CrunchyCrump

It’s hard to explain as it’s taken a long time for me to understand it and I still don’t fully but women and men are treated differently but more based on how we’re predisposed naturally.

What on earth does this mean?

OP I don’t really have any advice on how you can deal with this. I find the whole thing very odd if I’m honest, how you could marry into a religion you don’t believe in is one thing, but to consign any future daughters to follow that religion you don’t want to be a part of and which is so oppressive, I just can’t fathom that. And which ever what you want to justify this to yourself, a religion that gives men freedom to marry anyone they chose, but women have to marry within the religion is oppressive.

This is what really stuck out for me from what you have said:

We have always said our children would be fully aware of both of views whilst following my husbands religion

It’s almost like saying to your daughter, see what you could have won if you’d been a boy. But since you’re a girl you have limited freedom in who you marry.

@Tyyy many posters on this thread are telling the OP to leave her husband as he will demand that his daughter wears a head covering, which is being oppressive.

Your unborn daughter is an innocent babe. Please leave this horrible man and let her have a future. She did not ask to be born. She deserves the best chances in life as do all children. This is 2022 not the Middle Ages and women have struggled for hundreds of years to gain the human rights we have now. I feel so strongly about this I consider it to be a child protection issue. Your poor daughter.

@LittleBearPad He didn't marry outside his faith if his wife has converted to it.

Personally I feel it's so wrong to convert to a religion when you don't really accept all that goes with it, particularly the cultural norms within that community. OP has realised too late that she hasn't really accepted the inequalities and the fact any daughter would be condemned to a life of restriction because of the patriarchy inherent in the religion.

Would your DH consider moving to another part of the country and getting away from his parents and communities influence? It's entirely possible to remain within the faith but live outside the cultural prohibitions within the community. Breaking away could be very difficult so I would do this with specialist advice and care.

Like fuck would I allow my daughter to be oppressed and abused, and it is abuse!

He is a father, how dare he put his own interests before his child's. He needs to put his daughters welfare above his own, that is what parenting is.

How can you stay with a man who will treat your daughter as a second class citizen because his imaginary friend says so?

@DelphiniumBlue

His beliefs don't trump yours.

And her beliefs don’t trump his.

I don’t at all agree with what he believes, but I see that response so many times on here and it’s just stupid.

They should have talked about this before they got married. Sounds like they did and OP accepted it. That’s where she went wrong.

Its also a weird thought that you were happy to bring a boy into this religion? I think id find it harder to raise a boy to believe that he was allowed More freedoms that females simply because he was male.

This is absolutely right, I hadn’t thought of that. What kind of example is it setting the next generation of men?

Maybe some of us are uninformed or biased. But the simple facts (the ones you've told us) tell me that your daughter's life will be controlled and not one she chooses for herself. The very fact that the rules for girls and boys / men and women are different shows that women are second-classed, oppressed citiziens. She won't have the freedom to choose who she wants to marry. That is huge.

As pp said Personally- I could never choose any man over my child's freedom and happiness and I would never understand anyone else doing the same

As things stand, you are sacrificing your daughter's future choice of husband so you can keep your own choice. You are putting yourself above your daughter.

And you and your husband are agreeing to allow your daughter to be oppressed and controlled so your husband doesn't receive a future punishment - one that you don't even believe in as you don't share his faith. So you are going to watch your daughter being punished, ostensibly to save her father (which itself is twisted) even though you don't believe her father would be punished.

If you do anything else other than leave, you’re complicit. Simple.

It’s hard to dredge up any sympathy for OP; imagine when her DD is older she’ll defend her DH’s supposed faith based decisions to the hilt exactly as she had done here, regardless.

I think its worth questioning if you are happy for your son to be raised to think this would be an acceptable way to treat your granddaughter. If its ok that he'll be taught you and your side of the family are inferior and wrong.

Personally I'd move back to the UK and had dd here then think if your dhs culture is one you want to raise both dcs in. Having a dd does make many woman change their view of feminism and woman's rights, its one thing accepting a position of inferiority for yourself, quite another to accept it for your dd. I felt it keenly when she was only a few months old - reading about yet another woman being discriminated against -that fuck, I had less than 18 years to fix this so she didn't have to put up with the shit I (and many contemporaries) had.

[quote inheritancetrack]@LittleBearPad He didn't marry outside his faith if his wife has converted to it.

Personally I feel it's so wrong to convert to a religion when you don't really accept all that goes with it, particularly the cultural norms within that community. OP has realised too late that she hasn't really accepted the inequalities and the fact any daughter would be condemned to a life of restriction because of the patriarchy inherent in the religion.

Would your DH consider moving to another part of the country and getting away from his parents and communities influence? It's entirely possible to remain within the faith but live outside the cultural prohibitions within the community. Breaking away could be very difficult so I would do this with specialist advice and care. [/quote]
But she didn’t convert, did she?

She merely seems to have hoped that any children would be boys

@CrunchyCrump if you are currently in the middle East please act very carefully. You could lose your children entirely. If you decide to leave him, make sure you and your children are in the UK "visiting family" when you tell him and have kids passports locked away. Do not let him take them back to the middle East, you could lose them forever. Best of luck to you

For me it depends very much which country you're in and whether they have apostasy laws (I think we've established that this is Islam we're talking about).

The restrictions your husband is proposing for a daughter are one thing, but I could never have a child of either sex in a country where they'd face criminal sanctions if they wanted to change or abandon religion.