Having a girl will divide us

[CrunchyCrump]

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

I think by staying you are creating more problems for yourself and this poor child. Clearly you know this is all wrong and should leave him, separate before things get to the point where there are arguments and possibly worse in front of the child. Also your daughter may be completely against this religion by 14 years of age and could rebel leading to more issues.

Leave now, your daughter's life is more important than a set of misogynistic beliefs.

I can't seem to understand why people are telling you to leave your husband when you married him and had a DS with him knowing full well what his religion meant if you did have a girl. Were you just banking on having boys?

I’ve seen this is now trending which is what I didn’t want given how biased and uninformed many peoples views are.

Thank you so much to those of you have given me links for further research. I do need to learn more, we all do. I’m incredibly grateful for those of you who’ve had similar experiences and for sharing them. I’ll leave the thread now, many thanks again.

[quote CrunchyCrump]@BurntToastAgain it’s not cultural when it’s explicitly stated in their text that women should cover their hair. Not sure how that can be misinterpreted?[/quote]
You won’t actually find that in the qu’ran. It says women should cover their chests in mosque. I suggest you buy an English translation and read it. It’s surprising just how much is not in there. Especially when you are reliant on your husband explaining things to you. Oh and while we are on the subject men and women aren’t predisposed to anything. Misogynistic nonsense. I also recommend you read hymens and headscarves. Excellent book about the differences between Islam and the cultural voodoo we all just accept as being essential part of the religion. Only where women are concerned though obviously

Remove the invisible man in the sky out of the equation.
Would you allow your husband to control what your daughter wears, who she married etc if he was non religious? Would you allow him to impose such strict rules on your daughter and lax ones for himself and your son without the religious aspect?
I’m guessing no. You’d be horrified. So why is that abuse ok when it’s under the guise of religion? A religion you don’t even follow.

To paraphrase a mn favourite-you don’t have a religion problem, you have a dh problem.

Thats awful. You've had freedom yet don't want the same life for your daughter?

I'd leave now before your dc are old enough to question why you're leaving. You can't leave this until she's 14 you know.... I left an abusive man and it was hard enough because the DC1 was 4, adn she asked if he knew where we were etc.. If she'd been older it would have been harder.

This isn't going to work. You know that in your heart. You can't willingly knowingly bring a daughter in to this.

Wishing you strength.

It’s not “biased” and “brainwashed” to think you’re in an awful pickle.

If you’re British I’d suggest you somehow find the strength to come home. You need to work on your own self-worth because clearly you weren’t brought up to believe you were “second” or predisposed to servitude.

You could come home to a shitty council flat and benefits and wake up every day to the smiling faces of your free children and a mother who protects them above all else. Good luck.

Just saw your post where you say the faith is Islam, sorry.

I'm a Muslim woman, I choose to wear hijab, and I certainly wouldn't stand for your husband's crap.

The Qur'an and Ahadith provide a lot of guidance, but there are multiple interpretations and it's essential to consider the linguistic and cultural contexts of what has been written. For example, there is guidance that men and women should dress modestly - there are descriptions of what would be considered 'modest' in different societies, and there's significant variation between them - what one society views as modest, another may find offensive, and the key issues are about respect and compromise.

There are also some parts of Islamic teaching which are crystal clear on the importance of respecting other people's choices. A key verse states: "There is no compulsion in religion". For a person's religious practices to be meaningful, that person needs to be free to choose them. That means, for example, that a man forcing his wife or daughter to follow practices of his choosing is in the wrong - this would be considered by many to be an injustice against them and something for which he will be called to account.

As a Muslim parent, his responsibility is to ensure his children receive sufficient education about Islam that they can make informed choices about their own beliefs and practices as they come of age. An overly rigid approach is just going to push everyone away and cause his children to resent and reject the views he's trying to push on people.

Don't accept misogyny for your children. They deserve better. It might help for you to speak with some female Islamic scholars from a range of schools - your local mosques should be able to arrange this, and/or you could contact some of the larger UK mosques by email.

Why is it different for a girl, in what way?
What will she have to do and why do you not do it??
You need to tell us more please

So if you ere having a boy all would be well?
You old carry on and bring him up to be another misogamist?
Carry it on to your grandchildren?

@Scirocco

Just saw your post where you say the faith is Islam, sorry.

I'm a Muslim woman, I choose to wear hijab, and I certainly wouldn't stand for your husband's crap.

The Qur'an and Ahadith provide a lot of guidance, but there are multiple interpretations and it's essential to consider the linguistic and cultural contexts of what has been written. For example, there is guidance that men and women should dress modestly - there are descriptions of what would be considered 'modest' in different societies, and there's significant variation between them - what one society views as modest, another may find offensive, and the key issues are about respect and compromise.

There are also some parts of Islamic teaching which are crystal clear on the importance of respecting other people's choices. A key verse states: "There is no compulsion in religion". For a person's religious practices to be meaningful, that person needs to be free to choose them. That means, for example, that a man forcing his wife or daughter to follow practices of his choosing is in the wrong - this would be considered by many to be an injustice against them and something for which he will be called to account.

As a Muslim parent, his responsibility is to ensure his children receive sufficient education about Islam that they can make informed choices about their own beliefs and practices as they come of age. An overly rigid approach is just going to push everyone away and cause his children to resent and reject the views he's trying to push on people.

Don't accept misogyny for your children. They deserve better. It might help for you to speak with some female Islamic scholars from a range of schools - your local mosques should be able to arrange this, and/or you could contact some of the larger UK mosques by email.

What an excellent post.

@CrunchyCrump

I’ve seen this is now trending which is what I didn’t want given how biased and uninformed many peoples views are.

Thank you so much to those of you have given me links for further research. I do need to learn more, we all do. I’m incredibly grateful for those of you who’ve had similar experiences and for sharing them. I’ll leave the thread now, many thanks again.

You may believe posters to be "biased and uninformed", but you started a thread on an emotive subject. You don't decide what trends. This is about the upbringing of a girl, and many people will have strong opinions.

@Scirocco

Without knowing which religion, it's difficult to provide specific rebuttals to your husband's interpretations, but if it's one of the 'mainstream' Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) then there are certainly many schools of thought and interpretations of the main texts. Your husband's interpretations aren't the only option available. I suspect there's a large amount of cultural overlay and expectations at play in his attitudes, depending upon his own upbringing and denomination / school of thought.

If your husband is willing to consider your concerns, then it might be worthwhile for him to speak with some local scholars or faith leaders, not only within his own school of thought but within others within his faith. They may help him realise that there are different viewpoints and different paths here, and that being too set in his own interpretation means he risks losing his family. For example, if the faith in question is Islam and he compels his daughter to wear hijab (a hair covering) or face punishment, then a lot of people would consider him to be in the wrong - he would be forcing her to do something for his own reasons, rather than her choosing to do it as part of her own practice of her faith. Forcing compliance is unacceptable - people need to make their own choices about how to live their lives and practise any faith in which they believe. By being forceful, all he will achieve is pushing people away from him and from the faith he wants them to share with him.

Stand up for your daughter's rights, your rights and your son's rights - none of you should have to live a life governed by misogyny and inflexibility. If your husband is unwilling to engage with you on this, then he is the one dividing your family. He chose to marry someone who doesn't share his interpretation of his faith, and to have children with that person - needing to compromise on cultural and faith issues is part of that. By not being willing to do that, he's showing a lack of respect for you and for your family.

This is a really good response that addresses the OPs actual issue at hand.

I’m surprised that so many PPs to my original concern about Islamophobia in this thread don’t see that comments like children being raised in Muslim families are “raised as misogynistic bigots” as offensive?

I’m not Muslim or even religious but it’s clear to me that that’s a pretty offensive interpretation.

OP is unlikely to leave her husband so actual advice like the above that would support their family to see how to interpret the various religious norms in a progressive way that works for them both is probably more useful for her.

"but yes parents are effectively punished (doesn’t get into heaven)"

I would risk that for my child. Wouldn't you/he? You know heaven is not a real place don't you?

Has the OP converted to the unnamed religion?

I would like my daughter to enjoy the same freedoms / choices I had when I was growing up

Choice really is stay or leave if there is no compromise

@EngTech

Has the OP converted to the unnamed religion?

I would like my daughter to enjoy the same freedoms / choices I had when I was growing up

Choice really is stay or leave if there is no compromise

Her OP says she doesn't share the religion.

I don't want to presume to know which religion you refer to, but suffice to say that I have taught in UK inner city primary schools for over 25 years, schools where the majority of pupils come from families (from many different nationalities and demographics) adhering to a number of religious faiths which could be said to prejudice the rights and life choices of women and girls. I know you're not in the UK at the moment, and my experience reflects a context where religion on its own, as opposed to nationality + religion (where interpretations of religion and cultural expressions tend to be more concentrated) is the common denominator and here's what I see:
I have known some families for many years as their children have moved up my schools and been on friendly terms with mothers and fathers. Both sons and daughters who have moved on to secondary school or into FE or HE often keep in touch. In my experience, like AlwaysTooTired says, daughters are often treated no differently in terms of actual opportunities and access to experiences, including sports or residential trips. Instances of difference where religious belief is cited as a reason tend to be for both sexes such as skipping certain lines in Christmas carols, or avoiding specific items on the lunch menue. I'm teaching Y6, so many of my girls have started their periods, but even this change doesn't necessarily lead to any further overt changes in appearance or expectations of conduct.
I'm not saying I "know how it goes" with any authority, but am offering some reassurance that even in what appears to be fairly observant families, daughters do flourish and do not necessarily live in their brothers' shadow.

You have to put your daughter first. Leave him.

The thing is these things are never ever clear in the religion - if it were every single person of that religion would act and behave the same and they don’t. It is interpretation and tolerance. You must fight for your daughters right to be free and happy. Giving the main values of the religion and allowing her to decide as she gets older the aspects that she herself wants to freely choose and do is your responsibility as a good parent.

www.amazon.co.uk/Headscarves-Hymens-Middle-Sexual-Revolution/dp/1780228872?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

That's his problem. No way would I allow my daughter to be oppressed or forced into certain behaviours because of religious expectations.

@Lemonlettuce and @Scirocco @piney07 thank you for your posts today, insightful and they’ve really helped me hugely and I’ll be investigating those avenues.

You shouldn’t of married him and you shouldn’t of gotten pregnant to him knowing he held three views. What the hell were you thinking?