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Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

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Having a girl will divide us

476 replies

CrunchyCrump · 15/01/2022 06:52

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

OP posts:
Wannago · 15/01/2022 12:02

I think it is important to step back. A lot of the objections on here can be summed up by, as one poster put it Men get more freedom because of what? Their inherent maleness.

In every society that is true. None more than the UK. I, like every mother I know, try and insist that my daughter be home by dark, and worry if she isn't, scared about a Sarah Everard situation. I do not do the same for my son, because what? In order to give the equality I am going to restrict them both, when the reality is that he is far less likely to be harressed or worse. He just isn't.

At some point my daughter may well turn around to me and say, my life, my risk, and I will have to accept that, but my heart will be in my mouth, in a way that it will not be for my son. Or she may understand and accept the restrictions of her own free will. But restrictions or risk there is, and everybody on this thread is kidding themselves if they claim to actually give as much freedom to their girls and to their boys. I wish it weren't so, but it is.
And, the second aspect is that all parents restrict their children in very severe ways - and more so today in the UK than they ever used to. As a kid I used to walk to my primary school from aged 5, crossing two roads there and two roads back. Nobody, but nobody in my kids' primary schools would let them do likewise (indeed the school wouldn't let them out the door without an adult until they were in Year 6 and only if they had parent written consent at that age). Once they become teenagers they get and take more freedom, as will your daughter (and son). Until then, parental control is fierce. And parents control what they are exposed to, and what ideas filter through. If you do not allow her to be educated in her tradition/culture, you will be cutting her off from half of what she is (just as if you don't educate her about the life you grew up with, you will be cutting her off from her other half).
And the third aspect is that all parents control the clothes their kids wear up until at least their teenage years. And most parents dress their kids by gender (and most school uniforms in the UK are different by gender). There are parents who dress their girls and boys identically, and there is a movement to do so, but it is certainly pretty mainstream still in the UK to give girls dresses/skirts and boys trousers, so it is very normal to make a distinction. So the question is, is the objection to gendered clothing, or to the idea that your daughter will need to be covered and you son won't - and would you feel less conflicted if you agreed with your husband that your son would not go topless/wear short shorts etc? Then your standards would in fact be the same for both, just more restrictive than the forms of dress you grew up with (ie no tank tops, no bikinis)? By the time they hit their teens, they will start making clothing choices for themselves, and so long as you as parents agree to accept that, ie it is their choice, then again it would be the same rule for both. If your daughter then chooses not to cover herself, you won't be in any different situation to the typical British father who is horrified by the short skirt, tank top, high heels, fishnet stockings that many teens or my generation used to wear to parties, and who ineffectually tried to forbid it. If your husband is asking for hair covering earlier than that, then maybe there is an issue - but many, many Muslims, even those who hold by hair covering, don't require it before puberty. Hair covering at puberty IF you daughter doesn't want it, might be a fight you might have to have then (and maybe that would be the time to leave, if your husband was not willing to tolerate her not doing so), but it is your daughter's hair, and you never know, she actually might want to do it even if it horrifies you - even especially if it horrifies you, teenagers have a habit of trying to differentiate themselves by choosing whatever it is that horrifies their parents (and then change her mind several times over the course of her life). If you are absolutely set on her not covering her hair, you are just as much dictating to her as your husband is - and she might well seize on that as a form of adolescent rebellion.
Who your daughter chooses to marry is a long way away, and so long as you and your husband agree to abide by the UK law that she cannot marry before 18, and your husband is not going to physically force her (if he is the type to do that, then I would agree with all the posters saying leave, but I don't get that impression), then you can safely leave the choice to your daughter, who will do what she wants, whatever your husband (or you) says. Children make their own choices - and indeed, you leave with your daughter and raise her as a single mum, but she grows up knowing that her father is Muslim, you might well find her deciding in her early teens to adopt the most stringent version of covering as part of her identity formation. Children do that. Leaving to "save her" in circumstances where there is no abuse can have a way of backfiring.

SeeMyLanyardAndWeepBitch · 15/01/2022 12:07

@CrunchyCrump

I’ve seen this is now trending which is what I didn’t want given how biased and uninformed many peoples views are.

Thank you so much to those of you have given me links for further research. I do need to learn more, we all do. I’m incredibly grateful for those of you who’ve had similar experiences and for sharing them. I’ll leave the thread now, many thanks again.

You call people biased and ill informed but you've literally just said that your own daughter is going to grow up without the choices and freedoms you had and that you would ideally prefer for her, because of Islam and the fact that she risks being punished by her father for not adhering to his strict expectations.

I'm absolutely baffled that you didn't have a more serious discussion about this before you married and had children with this man, frankly. It's pretty fucking important.

Meraas · 15/01/2022 12:07

[quote liveforsummer]@Meraas it's because OP has stated that specifically as the reason her daughter must follow the religion. Of course it's crap unfortunately OP doesn't understand this [/quote]
Apologies, my mistake.

chilliplant634 · 15/01/2022 12:08

With all due respect, if your beliefs and values were so incompatible then why did you get married and bring children into this in the first place? Your original post mentions that this was discussed before marriage. Did you think he would change? Or were you banking on only having boys? Genuinely confused.

Now of course, everyone is piling on to OPs husband and complaining about religion. But its not like he tricked you or misled you into this. It was all laid on the table. You willingly agreed to it and have now changed your mind.

I don't think you have many options. Your disagreements over lifestyle and the kids upbringing will only continue. If bringing your kids up in his faith is unacceptable to you now (although it seems like you willingly agreed to this in the beginning) then it seems you will have to both go your own way.

What a shame. Best of luck OP.

Subbaxeo · 15/01/2022 12:09

Haven’t read the whole thread, but he’s worried he may not go to heaven because his daughter doesn’t do as she’s told. Is this a wind up? If not, get out-why would you lander to this?

SeeMyLanyardAndWeepBitch · 15/01/2022 12:10

agree with chilliplant634

vere111 · 15/01/2022 12:10

This reply has been deleted

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Hoppinggreen · 15/01/2022 12:11

@wanderingabout

There is too much Islamophobia on this thread, it's appalling. My suggestion to you is to read about Islam and go to the local mosque to understand more about it. Islam regards both men and women equally. Rather it was the first religion to give women their due rights. All of this talk on the thread about being unequal is absolutely false. Islam prescribes BOTH men and women to observe the hijab. The hijab isn't just the covering of the hair. It's being modest in clothing, attitude, voice everything. And it prescribes men to lower their gaze first then women to do the same. Women have the right to work and whatever she earns is not her husbands, not her parents, not her children..it's HERS alone. Whatever she chooses to do with it. In other cultures, dowry is paid to the man at the time of marriage. In Islam, the women is paid dowry at the time of marriage. And again that money/gift/gold whatever she chooses is hers ALONE. Your husband can absolutely tell his daughter that this is what he thinks she should do but he CANNOT force her. Nobody can be forced in Islam. I suggest you to please read more about it and let your daughter come and let her decide for herself if she wants to cover her head or night. Also
But like all religions it has been co opted by men to control women Islam in its pure sense does NOT oppress women. Men oppress women
cherrypie66 · 15/01/2022 12:16

So he married out of the religion but his child is forbidden. Fuck that

Changemaname1 · 15/01/2022 12:18

Women are repressed enough without having to follow made up bullshit because of “ religion “

Weird how all these different religions all seem to have in common being of more benefit to men , so strange . Hmm

Leave and give her a nice life

bembridge11 · 15/01/2022 12:19

You havent had your child yet. When you do - you will realise that there is no love greater or more pure than your love for your child. Tour husband will also experience a love so strong for his child - like nothing he has felt before. If for some sad reason this doesnt change his mind. Then you will have to leave your husband. And you will find that strength because your maternal love will carry you through this.

Gwenhwyfar · 15/01/2022 12:22

[quote CrunchyCrump]@BurntToastAgain it’s not cultural when it’s explicitly stated in their text that women should cover their hair. Not sure how that can be misinterpreted?[/quote]
I've heard other interpretations eg people arguing that it was only for the prophet's wives and not for all women.

Lilymossflower · 15/01/2022 12:24

Divorce

Nanny0gg · 15/01/2022 12:27

@wanderingabout

There is too much Islamophobia on this thread, it's appalling. My suggestion to you is to read about Islam and go to the local mosque to understand more about it. Islam regards both men and women equally. Rather it was the first religion to give women their due rights. All of this talk on the thread about being unequal is absolutely false. Islam prescribes BOTH men and women to observe the hijab. The hijab isn't just the covering of the hair. It's being modest in clothing, attitude, voice everything. And it prescribes men to lower their gaze first then women to do the same. Women have the right to work and whatever she earns is not her husbands, not her parents, not her children..it's HERS alone. Whatever she chooses to do with it. In other cultures, dowry is paid to the man at the time of marriage. In Islam, the women is paid dowry at the time of marriage. And again that money/gift/gold whatever she chooses is hers ALONE. Your husband can absolutely tell his daughter that this is what he thinks she should do but he CANNOT force her. Nobody can be forced in Islam. I suggest you to please read more about it and let your daughter come and let her decide for herself if she wants to cover her head or night. Also
And is all that genuinely the case in all Muslim countries?

It doesn't appear so, and we don't know the one the OP is living in.

Mellowyellow222 · 15/01/2022 12:31

@Wannago

‘ Men get more freedom because of what? Their inherent maleness. In every society that is true. None more than the UK.’

Do you really believe that no where in the world has a greater gender imbalance than the UK?

I’m sorry but that is nonsense

MamaSquealus · 15/01/2022 12:41

My husband is a Muslim; he understood when we started our relationship that by choosing to marry a non-Muslim woman, he would have to compromise on certain aspects of how we raise our children. He knew that as a non-religious person, I wouldn't want religion forced down our kids throats, that I'd want them to learn about both of our beliefs, and other religions too, and make their own decisions as adults.
He also went to great efforts to learn more about the differences between religious and cultural expectations, as they can often be conflated.

My husband fully respects me and my moral beliefs, despite the fact I'm completely non-religous, and trusts me to raise our children as I see fit. When his family or community pass judgement or attempt to pressure him to conform, he defends our choices as parents. He'd also be willing to walk away from them should they choose not to accept our decisions.
He always quotes the Quran "There is no compulsion in religion, the right direction is clearly distinguished from the wrong" - this doesn't mean that Islam is the only way, it's just about finding your own spiritual path.

You and your husband must be in agreement that you will both defend your daughter and her right to choose her path in life.
With regards to her needing to cover her hair, this is a common practice in Islam but it's not actually written in the Quran. There are particular verses in there that mention head coverings, but it could definitely be argued that that's more to do with protection from the sun and it does also mention covering "adornments and beauty" but that's about covering boobs and fannies, and natural beauty is exempt (face, eyes...hair...)...so it's definitely a matter of interpretation.

With regards to marriage (which is obviously far more important) she cannot be forced to marry anyone. You must ensure she is able to go out into the world and meet people, fall in love with whoever she chooses, and make a life for herself, however that looks. You can't just accept that she might have to marry someone chosen for her; you know full well that's not right.

If your husband isn't on your side, why did he
choose to marry you? Why did he choose to have babies with you? Remind him he made his own decisions, now he has to back them up, and supporting you and your little ones is part of that deal.
You also need to do your own research with regards to Islamic teachings and the Quran, if you're hoping to negotiate and explain alternative viewpoints that are still in line with what is deemed acceptable within the religion.

Good luck OP 💐 stand your ground, be brave; your baby girl will thank you for letting her choose her own life.

GreenClock · 15/01/2022 12:41

Stupid dogma and superstition. You and your children will be better off out of it. See a solicitor.

charmingbat · 15/01/2022 12:42

How can you possibly contemplate staying with him? You must protect your daughter.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 15/01/2022 12:46

A lot of genuine people here have posted trying to explain that what the OP is going through seems to be more culture based than direct from the religion

And they're quite right; as with other religions, it suits some men just fine to have an "official framework" though which to exercise their misogyny, and by heck they use it (though often very selectively)

But it's the culture thing which means that, while studying the faith is an excellent idea, it's not going to do OP much good if she finds herself among a group wedded to certain practices and convictions, even if they're against the basic tenets of Islam

Good luck trying to go against the mainstream then, and 100 times so as a non-believer

BiBabbles · 15/01/2022 12:46

I can see why you're struggling, but I agree with others that it seems your husband has given you a very specific version of Islam and tried to play down how those differences can impact people. I'd suggest seeing if there is anyone else in your community you can reach out to for help in working this out as it will depend on what's available to you.

It's one thing when adults choose, but how covering is enforced on girls through religious incentives can be twisted and what you've said about him being 'punished' is setting off alarm bells for me. I'm not the only one from a very religious background who has stories of being made to cover up & having the explanation haunt me. Having to mentally deal as a little girl with the idea that the people in my religious community, who were meant to good God-fearing people, could be trying to look down my church dress and that I was obligated to show I was a 'good (grand)daughter' by covering up and not 'making' men be tempted is a mindfuck.

Even without other differences, that's creates even further restrictions and pain. Making a child responsible for the emotions, the salvation of others is harmful and the rhetoric often supports victim blaming. The idea that if you dress 'well', sexual abuse won't happen to you and that it's our fault if men are 'tempted' by us, that that temptation could ruin our family, erodes the heart.

It is a mainstream religion, I’d like to point out that the expectations are not cultural and are explicitly stated in their relevant holy text

No matter how explicit, the interpretation and inclusion within religious texts is a choice backed by cultural power.

For example - spare the rod, spoil the child is very explicit promotion of violent punishments clearly seen when reading older versions, but it's been reimagined as meaning like a shepherd guides instead. That happens with holy texts all the time, when part of living faiths, they are a living document that continuously changes with the people. This is often framed as better understanding, but it's just how wrestling with the document over centuries is going to work.

it’s not cultural when it’s explicitly stated in their text that women should cover their hair. Not sure how that can be misinterpreted?

We can see a wide range in differences between sects in how these interpretations are taken showing that it is up for debate.

Religion cannot really be separated from culture, even if we take the texts as divine, how they are used comes from the ideas they're in. They can't be separated from the power structures that are using them. That's culture.

This can be seen in enforcement. The lines about how men should look down/away from women they lust after are rarely as enforced or talked about in how not doing so will punish the parents the same way as covering. Similar lines are in many sacred texts including the infamous line about how it's better to pluck out one's eyes than sin by lusting, but no one is enforcing those and few would support that being held up as a model of goodness. It's not culturally supported for men to pluck out their eyes over emotions or even really to turn away in most places, but we all have to learn how to manage our feelings. It isn't right to make others responsible for making us not feel things - that's never going to work.

Italiangreyhound · 15/01/2022 12:48

I don't know if this has been posted before but Sermina Ali has something brilliant to share.

For the record I am not Muslim but I am religious. Evangelical Christian. I come from a part of the church that traditionally was quite anti-LGBT++.

In 2013 the equal marriage act came in and I researched the topic. I read about a young gay scholar in USA (Matthew Vine). His work on the Bible and gay marriage was revolutionary and helped me to make spiritual peace with LGBT++ issues.

Fast forward 8 years and both my children are LGBT. Thank goodness I made sense of it all and peace and was able to be accepting and affirming.

In many ways I was always accepting and affirming but my religion was not.

I expect your husband could make a similar journey with his religion. If he chose to.

Italiangreyhound · 15/01/2022 12:49

Sorry Samina Ali.

TooManyPlatesInMotion · 15/01/2022 13:03

This does not sound like a mainstream religion to me. It sounds oppressive and abusive.

Somerandomshittyname · 15/01/2022 13:04

It doesn’t have to be the way you describe it. I’m a Catholic married to a Muslim. Our daughter (3) is Muslim however the only ‘Muslim’ things she does is not eat pork and celebrates Eid. We celebrate Christmas and Easter too. She eats non halal meat and chicken (if we eat out), purely so she has choice but we all eat halal at home, even me, just because it is easier. My husband was born and raised in a Muslim country but fully accepts the different culture of the UK. Our daughter will learn about God from both of us and will never be forced to conform to the sexist gender stereotypes of cultural Islam. In all honestly, my husband is very glad that his daughter has born in the UK, given the lack of opportunities, for girls and women in particular, in his home county.
Your husband is making a choice about the way he is practicing his religion and you need to make a choice for you and your children about whether his narrow interpretation of Islam is the right way for you all to live.

UserError012345 · 15/01/2022 13:06

What will life look like post split ? Would he go for 50% custody? It's unfortunate but whatever time she has with him will be oppressive / restricted.

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