Having a girl will divide us

[CrunchyCrump]

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

No female of any age should live with coercion or oppression. You have a responsibility to your daughter to ensure she is free of all coercive behaviour wherever that may come from or whenever that may be . Do not kick this down the road - you are just storing more problems for the future . Talk talk talk to your husband and if you find a way forward for you as a family. Do not forget that your daughter will quickly have her own ideas and opinions . How early does ‘indoctrination’start - if she has to go to a faith school then I’d be opting out pretty quickly ....

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I'm restating previous points, but I too am British and married to a Muslim. We have a DD and a DS, with a third child on the way.

I have to say that DH at the beginning of our marriage was far more inflexible than he is now. At the time he expected me to cover and there was an unstated expectation that DD would too when the time came. Since then, things have changed a lot. I do have some sympathy for your DH, especially if you're still in his home country. When you're brought up in a country where religion is very present in everyday life and there aren't a lot of different faiths, you're trained to see the world in only one way. You're taught that there's one right way to do things and everything else is wrong. It's a really punishing way to live and it's really hard to change that way of thinking. It also means that a lot of things that are cultural are termed as being religious commandments because religious commandments are unquestionable and unchanging whereas culture is more malleable and open to interpretation. We now live in a non-muslim third country and I'm not covered, DD isn't covered and she will travel and marry (or not marry) whoever she likes. She goes swimming in a normal swimsuit, except when she wears a rash vest to avoid sunburn. I think you actually need to help your DH here to realise that he and society are putting him, you and DD under unnecessary pressure. I've been married 12 years now and it took until year 7-8 to really get there with DH. He is still religious, we take kids to Arabic and religion classes (and triple check what they've learned so we can intervene and explain when required. DD for example came back saying that Moses was a mob boss a few weeks back. Also check what relatives are saying to them in private, it comes from a good place but can be really damaging) but he and I have both learned that we have far less input into what DD does than we had imagined when she was young. As far as marriage goes, if DD wants to marry a non-Muslim man she can do so in the UK, or in DH's home country with a conversion on paper. If she wants to marry a woman then the marriage won't be recognised in Egypt but she probably wouldn't choose to live there anyway in that case.

Do your DCs have a close relationship with your family? I think this has been really important for our DCs because whatever they are hearing from UK relatives about Islam or Egyptian relatives about 'Western lifestyles' they have a clear point of reference that contradicts most of the bullshit on both sides.

I did convert to Islam to make things easier legally. We married in DH's home country and religion influences legal rights a lot, so it was simpler to have everyone the same religion on paper. If I had remained Christian (not that I ever was in a real sense) it would have complicated custody rights in the event of divorce and it would mean that DH and kids couldn't inherit from me nor me from them. The kids are automatically registered in the religion of the father and it's written on birth certificate and ID card.

I'm actually more worried about my DS that my DD. I don't think this is an issue only for girls. We're taking pains to make sure DS doesn't get any ideas about being the boss of anyone because he's male. Luckily DD has a much more dominant personality so that helps a lot. DH has also put in a lot of effort to be a good role model. At the beginning of our marriage he didn't know how to make an omelette or use a washing machine. He still can't cook that well but does equal housework despite working full time and me not working at the moment.

Please don't think that this is unsolvable. It's only so if you can't have meaningful dialogue with your DH and both be a bit flexible in how you approach things. It may be that you can't agree but you may also be surprised at how much things can change.

OP, you state that you are not in the UK currently but talk about how "we" in the UK view Islam. Are your family still in the UK or near to you?
Do you have support local to you, outside of your husband's family?

It’s not inevitable that Muslim fathers treat their daughters like second class citizens. I was raised to reach my own conclusions about faith, did not cover my hair, was educated equally to my brother. Your husband is a misogynist. Your children deserve better

This may sound flippant, but it can also be really funny watching kids' reactions to religion classes of any ilk. DS (3 at the time) came back from his first religion class saying 'I can't wait for God to be dead so I can do whatever I want' and DD had a phase when she was seven or eight when she said 'My life is about pork and Jesus, in that order'. DH struggled with those things at first but now realises that they're rational reactions to restrictive views and practices and also quite funny.

Sounds like the religion is Islam, men allowed to marry outside the faith and women not?

As previous posters have suggested, I suggest researching into the faith itself rather than perceptions of it. Speak to a local imam, find a community of Muslim women to speak to. Find out what the religious expectations would be for your daughter and then weigh these against what may be your husband's personal expectations before making a decision. As PP have said, splitting may not have an impact on your husband's expectations of your daughter.

@piney07

There seems to be a lot of Islamophobia on this thread…. there are modern ways to interpret all religions.

But the OP's DH and his family don't seem to want to do that.

I'm curious as to the 'punishment' meted out if the rules are not followed?

And where they are living must make a difference too - it's not the UK so it's clearly somewhere where the religion (or its leaders) are followed slavishly, Pakistan?

Is this what you want for your daughter? To grow up being unable to make any choices for herself?

You might not want you leave your marriage, but I don’t see how you’re going to be able to look at yourself in the mirror knowing your daughter will not have the same freedom of choice your yourself or even your husband has had.

It’s all very hypothetical and misogynistic. So men can marry outside and make free choices but your daughter will not be able to do what she wants… so I assume your son can. Ok.. so if you stay then you’re ok with your son and daughter being treated as if your daughter is less than.

As a woman and a mother I would not be ok with this.

Could you really, truly, refuse your daughter the chance to marry someone she loves, or the chance to follow her dreams because of a bit of made up theology?

OP I’m not sure what version of Islam you are following but this
Once any child hits 16 they’ll be accountable for their own actions as it were but yes parents are effectively punished (doesn’t get into heaven) for actions their child takes up until they’re married. is complete untruth and not from any version of Islam. I would question what your husband is telling you or following.

Also a lot of Muslim women don’t cover their hair. Would your DH force her to cover her hair? Do you cover yours?

By the time she comes to marry she will make her own choice, he will just have to accept it or risk losing her.

@toomuchlaundry

Can I ask why some women choose to wear a head covering when not forced to, as they are choosing to wear an item of clothing which is a symbol of oppression for many women

What do you think about nuns? Are they oppressed? Or Google paintings of Mary- 99% of them her hair is covered. Was she oppressed too?

I’m tired of people assuming that because I choose to cover my hair, it must not be a real choice. It must be some subconscious compulsion from some male in my family. I wish it would stop.

@girlmom21

I'd leave. Your daughter is going to live an oppressed life. Your husband could choose to step back and give her more freedoms but he's using his religion as an excuse. You should have an equal say in her upbringing.

This.

How you married him know this was a possibility is strange.

[quote CrunchyCrump]@always2tired thank you so much for sharing your experience, I can’t tell you how grateful I am. I’m hoping for this exactly if I’m honest. I’ve spoken with my husband and the only differences between DS/DD would be the marriage/covering.[/quote]
So every day before she leaves the confines of her husbands house she will have to put on clothing that has been chosen for her from some guys writings from 1500 years ago. And as soon as she is married then the rest of her life will be dictated to by her husband. Like yours is.

Everything she wears and everything she does is a huge issue.

I mean this kindly but surely you played this out in your own mind before even going out with your Dh on a first date. Never mind when you decided to get married.

There is too much Islamophobia on this thread, it's appalling. My suggestion to you is to read about Islam and go to the local mosque to understand more about it. Islam regards both men and women equally. Rather it was the first religion to give women their due rights. All of this talk on the thread about being unequal is absolutely false. Islam prescribes BOTH men and women to observe the hijab. The hijab isn't just the covering of the hair. It's being modest in clothing, attitude, voice everything. And it prescribes men to lower their gaze first then women to do the same. Women have the right to work and whatever she earns is not her husbands, not her parents, not her children..it's HERS alone. Whatever she chooses to do with it. In other cultures, dowry is paid to the man at the time of marriage. In Islam, the women is paid dowry at the time of marriage. And again that money/gift/gold whatever she chooses is hers ALONE. Your husband can absolutely tell his daughter that this is what he thinks she should do but he CANNOT force her. Nobody can be forced in Islam. I suggest you to please read more about it and let your daughter come and let her decide for herself if she wants to cover her head or night. Also

This is a big issue. Bigger than love for your husband, bigger than financial or practical security.

You need to create a world around your daughter that she can live in is your absolute paramount concern. You cannot stay with a man who would be an obstacle to this. You must leave.

Also you can absolutely bring up your daughter in whatever way you like. You are the parent as well as he. BOTH parents are responsible for upbringing but none of you can force her to follow something.

What were you thinking?

You can't bring a daughter into this!

Both of you seem to have been happy to live in a fool's paradise with any female offspring paying a price that neither of you are having to pay. You're quite right to think the consequences of your decisions have come home to roost. They have.

In the circumstances, I think it's very unlikely you will be able to keep your children with you if you do decide to separate or return to your country of origin. You won't bring them up in the faith and you're an expat.

Your situation is very grave.

Some of the replies on this thread are really disheartening. No wonder Islamophobia and anti-Muslim prejudice is so rife in the world.

My religion is neither ‘bullshit’ or ‘ridiculous’ thank you very much. People can indeed be either of those 2 things but to conflate it across a whole faith which encompasses 1.6 billion people across the globe shows me that you are the one being ridiculous @ballsdeep

Nuns don't exactly have a very free life!

@toomuchlaundry

Nuns don't exactly have a very free life!

My point is- have they been oppressed by a male or have chosen this life for themselves?

[quote CrunchyCrump]@always2tired thank you so much for sharing your experience, I can’t tell you how grateful I am. I’m hoping for this exactly if I’m honest. I’ve spoken with my husband and the only differences between DS/DD would be the marriage/covering.[/quote]
I’m disturbed that op seems to be minimising the control her dd will be born into by emphasising hair covering.

From what she has said it is clear that her dd’s sexual partners will at least be constrained at best - no marriage outside the faith. Chances are I what is clearly a repressive environment they will be chosen for her. At worst they will be forced on her.

It’s no good people complaining about islamiphobia, name calling doesn’t cut it any more. This is what these cultures do to women.

Be very clear about what you are doing op. It sounds like you are already accepting their cultural ideas and concepts about what women are and what choices they have through life, determined by their biological sex rather than any capability, and you are selling both your children into that for your life convenience. Any ds you bring into the world will be another man claiming power over womens bodies by right of birth sex.

Everyone always harps on about us poor oppressed exploited Muslim women. We don’t need or want your fake superior sympathy. A lot of genuine people here have posted trying to explain that what the OP is going through seems to be more culture based than direct from the religion. But oh no this must be discounted because us brainwashed head covering Muslim women have no idea what we are talking about. This would never ever happen with any other religious community. I can’t imagine the same replies even passing people’s lips if this was a discussion about an Orthodox Jew wanting his daughters/wife to cover or wear wigs once they were married. But it seems as per usual, Islam and Muslims are fair game.

Also, as pp say, be aware that British law does not protect British women and children effectively here in Britain. It certainly does not protect them in the event of international entanglements.