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Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Fed is Best!!!!!!

848 replies

HotDawg123 · 26/02/2017 20:58

If you choose to breast feed - good for you
If you choose to bottle feed - good for you
But if you choose to be a breast feeding warrior and look at those who choose to bottle feed as scum then I hope you slip in dog shit tomorrow.

The amount of horrible women I've come across who are like this is too many now. And as I am heavily pregnant and have hormone rage it is really pissing me off.

Thank you for listening.

OP posts:
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Alyosha · 06/03/2017 18:27

"What????? Why on earth do you think you are justified in saying that's how I think?! Papers vary. There are plenty of papers which show great outcomes for BF which I think are flawed. I am critical, sceptical and I know how to assess research, and that does not lead me to decide on the merit of a paper by looking at its outcomes for breastfeeding. "

Because every paper I've linked to which shows the benefits of BF are minimal or that efforts to promote BF can harm babies has caused you to say something like "This study is bad because it is bad. I think it is bad, and everyone agrees with me". I.e. the BFHI study on the risks of skin to skin contact - first you said it was a bad study, then you said it was OK because leaving women unattended is bad practice, so if that didn't happen there would be no problems.

"yes - and so what? The basic flaw persists - in none of the outcomes would you expect BF/FF (ill-defined in this paper, but that's another issue) to overcome a sibling effect."

Surely you would if you believed BF had some long term benefits beyond preventing infection? Which I believe you do?

"it was not a BFHI study. I was clarifying (as you did not) that the practice of skin to skin without monitoring (which is one small part of Baby Friendly) was negligent. "

It was a study on the BFHI, wasn't it? And it doesn't matter if it's a small part of BFHI or not - it's still something which hospitals will start to do as a part of taking part in the BFHI, which could cause excess deaths down the road without adequate monitoring. Given the state of the NHS, I think we can expect inadequate monitoring to be the norm & not the exception. Maybe you disagree though?

"there's 57 pages. Have you really read and assessed it? Never mind - it's a systematic review from a trusted resource. The findings will be robust, I hope. It shows 'significant though relatively modest long term effects of breastfeeding'.....and your point is?! I think that's a decent summing up of the evidence as I have read it. "

Busted! No, I haven't read every page. But that's not the point - there are some benefits (not every thing they looked had benefits - one of the main ones was blood pressure!) - but they are very small. Given the time and effort WHO is spending on BF promotion in Europe you might think they would bother with something with more of an impact! Early years for example...

"Oh bloody hell.....are you confusing mortality with morbidity? If you are, I'll have to throw in the towel. If you're not, then you're using 'mortality;' as short hand for 'short and medium term outcomes' - well, equally mystifying and wrong! "

No I am not confusing the two. Perinatal mortality, as I am sure you know, looks at death from 22 weeks gestation to 7 days post birth. So I would define perinatal mortality, either improved or worsened, as a short term outcome. Given it occurs within 7 days of birth. Infant mortality, as I'm sure you also know, is death up to a year. So any improvement (or not) of infant mortality could be seen as a medium term outcome. My point is, if increasing BF doesn't do anything for either of those factors - does it really matter for the health of babies in this country?

I agree that BF reduces morbidity.

"Look, Aloysha. I don't want to be rude, honestly. But you don't know this field well enough to be making these statements about the research or about me and my supposed opinions. There are indeed possible additional benefits not mentioned in that review - the lit. on infant feeding is HUGE. You, armed with Google, seem to think you can cherry pick your way through the studies and draw something out of the hat that will 'prove' the impact on health of infant feeding is negligible, false, over-stated, or not worth worrying about one way or the other. But it doesn't work that way. "

I think you are being very arrogant here. You are right that I am not an expert in the field. But there are other people who are just as invested as you are and have spent just as long as you have on this topic and have come to the conclusion that the impact on health in the West of infant feeding is indeed negligible, i.e. Amy Tuteur. You may disagree with them, but you cannot as an anonymous internet user (albeit one who is very knowledgeable about BF) throw your toys out of the pram and demand that I agree with you, especially on additional benefits that you have previously decided not to outline!

I agree that BFing in the west can a) reduce some infections and b) slightly reduce the risk of breast cancer.

"You talk as if you are the only person who is wise enough to know all this, and yet act as if the right study will finally prove you correct once and for all. "

Some projection here! The only one claiming to have enough knowledge to talk about BF is you! I freely admit that I have 0 medical training and my only qualification is a vague interest in the subject.

RE: hypoglycemia - yes you are right that I got that wrong. But it's a similar issue to dehydration - the baby isn't getting enough nutrition from BF.

Alyosha · 06/03/2017 18:29

I do think BF has some benefits - it decreases infections, and it reduces the risk of breast cancer in mums who breast feed.

I don't think the evidence is very strong that it does anything else. Perhaps as I read more I will change my mind!

AllTheGlitters · 08/03/2017 16:24

Alyosha

I'm glad this discussion has died. I just urge you, when trying to convince others to not bother breastfeeding because of "minimal benefits" that you realise that this is just not accurate, and that the statistics you are trying to use to justify this opinion are not fitted to the effects breastfeeding has at all. You even tried to argue when I mentioned adults, that because Western diets are so unhealthy, yet we still have a longer life expectancy than less developed countries with healthier diets, that this must conclude that an unhealthy diet doesn't matter! Which anyone with a shred of common sense knows is not true. And the same applies to your views on breastmilk.

I'd also like to point out that are knowledge of human nutrition is growing and developing, the evidence we have for things at the moment is not the whole or the end of the story. There may well come a time (given that widespread commercial formula has only been used for a few generations, vs millenia of breastfeeding) that there are further beneficial properties of human milk we are not as yet aware of. Furthermore, I would love to understand why you are so determined (despite plenty of both evidential and anecdotal evidence to the contrary, such as NICU babies having better survival prospects on breastmilk)to prove that breastmilk is, as you seem to see it, not worth the hassle? I worry you've been hoodwinked by large scale marketing to support formula milk, whereas attitudes to widespread formula use can and should be changed. It's not about demonising of belittling women who have trouble breastfeeding or putting babies at risk, I just don't see how anyone can consider formula milk to be equivalent to human breastmilk, it's such an odd notion.

Lunalovepud · 08/03/2017 18:07

I'm glad this discussion has died

Well that's started it up again... Hmm

AllTheGlitters · 08/03/2017 18:29
  1. I wasn't talking to you.
  1. It wasn't a discussion it was my last intended point on a discussion I was interested in.
  1. You don't have to respond.
Hmm
Lunalovepud · 08/03/2017 18:40

You posted on a public forum - you're talking to the whole Internet.

You're also very rude.

AllTheGlitters · 08/03/2017 18:44

You're rude! There was no need to respond to my post at all was there, apart from to be confrontational.

AllTheGlitters · 08/03/2017 18:46

And I may be on a forum but I was clearly addressing one particular person. If you don't want to take part in the discussion, you can leave the thread or not respond. There's no need to be obtuse and rude because you don't like my opinion.

Lunalovepud · 08/03/2017 18:57

Not sure confrontational - making an observation.

Firstly, I haven't commented on your opinion one way or or the other.

Secondly, I clearly do want to take part in a discussion or I wouldn't be here.

If you don't want people to respond to you, don't post. If you don't want a discussion then I can't only draw from your post and your attitude that you just thought you'd post on a really emotive thread that had gone quiet in order to get the last word in or assert your opinion once again.

AllTheGlitters · 08/03/2017 19:23

I'm happy to have a discussion on the point of the thread. I meant that specific discussion between 2 posters. If you want to take part in the discussion that's fine, but how is it helpful, constructive, or making any kind of point whatsoever, just criticising me for posting?

It is very emotive for me too, especially since I disagree so strongly with her opinion. "The last word"? Hardly, I just wanted to put my point across since I didn't really when the conversation was happening. I don't need to get an ego boost from having my post be the last on the thread, thanks.

With all due respect I have much more positive things to be focusing on than arguing with you over nothing, which is what is happening since you're not actually posting anything about the topic I was now. So won't be responding anymore.

redjumper · 08/03/2017 21:15

Luna, your story (5 pages ago sorry!) is heart breaking. I had my first child 4 years ago and I was convinced breastfeeding was best. I joined la leche league and used to bang on about how great BFing was and all the benefits. I just took these benefits at face value from things I heard at BF cafes, read in NHS leaflets etc.
Then quite a few of my friends had exactly the same experience as you. They wanted to BF as much as I did but couldn't. Most of then had low supply after a traumatic birth/EmCS and after spending weeks of time and money pumping and seeing lactation consultants they went to FF. They were devastated and some experienced postnatal depression and they put it down to their 'failure to be a good mother' just as you describe. It's so sad and so common. It makes me want to apologise for being one of those mums who add to this feeling of failure when it doesn't work. I was so busy talking about all the benefits of BFing and breastfeeding in public and trying to normalize BFing. But now I think it was adding to your pain.
Four years on and having read quite a bit of the scientific literature on it I do now feel that the benefits are overstated and that there should be a more balanced viewpoint given. Many mums really do feel that by failing at BFing and giving formula they are doing their babies harm.
Then I look at the other side of the coin. I had many problems in BFing including very severe nipple excema. My GP was great and referred me the same day to a dermatologist and the problem was resolved. Had the health professionals' attitude been 'BF benefits aren't that great, just give formula' there would have been nowhere to turn for the treatment I needed and I would have had to stop feeding. That would have been a real shame.
The 'BF advocates' are right to lobby for better BF support. They need to push any research study that supports BF in order to convince politicians to put more money into it. I understand their position and I personally appreciate it, yet I don't want to see more of my friends feeling like they're harming their babies if they fail to BF when they want to.
The Fed is Best thing is giving a little balance to this situation as I see it. I don't see it as being some secret campaign from formula companies.

Lunalovepud · 08/03/2017 21:45

Hi Redjumper and thanks for your post - I really appreciate it.

I absolutely agree that there should be more support for breastfeeding mothers and that breastfeeding should be normalised - at the moment I think women have a much harder time than they need to, doing something that is an everyday occurrence.

I would like to see a reduction in pressure on new mothers to breastfeed - we are absolutely agreed that there is a lot! Encouragement is one thing, pressure is quite another and we both obviously know lots of women who have been negatively impacted by it.

I would like to see a time when what happens to BFing or FFing mothers is not at the expense of the other. Women are awful to each other when it comes down to this subject and I wish there was a way that things could be more inclusive and supportive. Being a new mother is hard enough as it is!

I think the fed is best message is good, not because it takes power away from BFing mothers but because it gives equal power to FFing and BFing mothers.

neonrainbow · 09/03/2017 10:06

Excellent balanced post redjumper.

MrsDoylesladder · 09/03/2017 10:54

Thank you for your isn't redjumper. Yes, had I heard you at the time of my desperate post natal health struggles, it would have broken my heart even more. I felt Iike a total failure and it took me years to recover, if I ever really have. My poor dd didn't deserve it.

MrsDoylesladder · 09/03/2017 10:55

Your post not your isn't!

redjumper · 09/03/2017 11:39

Mrs Doyle I can really sympathise, although I was able to breastfeed it could easily have been different. Had I been unable to breastfeed in those early weeks I really would have been devastated. I was determined to do everything 'right' and I just accepted that breastfeeding was an essential part of that. I believed that breastfeeding was not just best, but way better than FF and that's because there is an unbalanced presentation of the research: just long lists of medical benefits many of which are not convincingly proven and many of which focus on long term health benefits for baby which carries stigma if these are not strived for by a mum. This is what I mean (in my post several pages ago) about there being propaganda out there. This is harmful to a lot of women and causes unnecessary suffering. Yet it is necessary to promote BF, increase support, fundinv etc. Like Luna says, it's a shame one has to be at the expense of the other.
The reduction in breast cancer risk is a good one to promote. It has been proven more convincingly than the long term benefits to baby. If it reduces individual risk of cancer by 2% (quite possibly more) in a disease that affects 1 in 10 women then that's the prevention of thousands of cases of breast cancer which is monumental in terms of public health. It's a strong argument for ongoing funding into BF support, promotion and normalisation but it's also a benefit that is for the mother rather than the baby. So should a woman not breastfeed then the focus isn't on any 'harm' to the baby, its just about a slightly increased risk for her which can be negated in other ways and doesn't carry any stigma.

neonrainbow · 09/03/2017 15:59

Just curious how long do you need to breastfeed for to reduce your risk of breast cancer and does the baby have to latch or is it just the production of milk which has the effect?

skerrywind · 09/03/2017 16:50

www.breastcancer.org/risk/factors/breastfeed_hist

kikibo · 09/03/2017 19:26

Oh, so most of the 'benefits' in terms of reducing breast cancer you get as a mother in a Western country is non-existent then?

I mean, women in the West rarely breastfeed 1 year. That's a first. Second, menstrual cycles don't always stay away during BF (hence why GPs still give the mini pill to women who do BF). So the only thing that would potentially really influence that risk is the breast cells that don't 'misbehave' and produce milk, which seems plausible, though there never seems to be a real causal link.

skerrywind · 09/03/2017 19:38

it may be because breastfeeding changes the cells in the breast. So the cells might be more resistant to the changes that lead to cancer.

Or these is some suggestion that breastfeeding cleanses out cells with DNA mutations from the epithelial lining,

I don't think enough research has been done. Even in Western countries breastfeeding cuts breast cancer rates however- all other factors accounted for.

redjumper · 09/03/2017 19:46

I don't know whether it's the latch or the milk production.
Heres a link to a study which combined data from many other studies. They conclude that having a baby reduces relative risk of breast cancer by 7% and breastfeeding reduces the risk by 4% for every 12 months a woman feeds. It doesn't conclude that there is any minimum time period of feeding before an effect occurs...

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(02)09454-0/fulltext

neonrainbow · 11/03/2017 07:45

I'm wondering because my babies didn't latch but i expressed for 3 weeks. Curious to see what it was that made the difference. I doubt 3 weeks of pitiful supply would make a difference for my cancer risk but its an intetesting theory.

skerrywind · 11/03/2017 08:57

I can't see why latch should be critical.
Expressing mimics a baby after all.

I would estimate that the protection is either hormonal or to do with the mechanism of milk production.

Most breast cancer occurs in the epithelial cells within the milk ducts. These are the cells that are responsible for milk production in the breast.

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