Fed is Best!!!!!!

[HotDawg123]

If you choose to breast feed - good for you
If you choose to bottle feed - good for you
But if you choose to be a breast feeding warrior and look at those who choose to bottle feed as scum then I hope you slip in dog shit tomorrow.

The amount of horrible women I've come across who are like this is too many now. And as I am heavily pregnant and have hormone rage it is really pissing me off.

Thank you for listening.

A summary for those of you who have just joined us:

We are getting nowhere fast.

• In the red corner, the breastfeeding advocates.

• In the blue corner, the women who are cynical about the impact of the benefits of breastfeeding

• everyone else - women who have had experiences on both sides of the fence, wondering when it all got so polarised and wanting to share their experiences.

And every now and then, Skerry , who apparently has government level influence on breastfeeding strategy (God help us all), turns up when she is taking time out from telling women who have had mastectomies about the importance of breastfeeding, strawmen, leaky guts, global conspiracy theories and cow molecules.

Saves you reading the last 14 pages...

Alltheglitters - and what additional benefits does the baby get from all of the special ingredients of breastmilk if it has no effect on their survival, their future lifespan and their future attainment?

Should read:

have had mastectomies about the importance of breastfeeding and starts shrieking about strawmen, leaky guts, global conspiracy theories and cow molecules.

Error posting. Must be because I was formula fed.

Luna

I think it should be up to the mother completely but there is a lack of support for breastfeeding in the UK which is one reason that rates are so low here. That's not a judgement on those who formula feed. I personally do not care how others feed their baby, as long as it's fed and kept healthy.

I wonder if attitudes vary by region. I breastfed and still do. I am one of a very few mothers that I know of who didn't formula feed. Nobody apart from midwives asked me how I planned to feed my baby before she born. I did receive negative comments for breastfeeding once she was born, from dp's family mainly. They had assumed I'd be formula feeding. Being a new mum is hard enough without being made to feel shit for how you feed your baby, whether that is breast or formula. I wish we could all just support each other and not raise so much as an eyebrow whether the mum gets out a breast or a bottle when the baby cries for food.

I think most of us on here agree with you newname - it's a shame that women have become so polarised and unsupportive of one another.

luna

Luna agree!

Scaremongering tactics 😂

Luna - excellent summary!

Like most arguments on MN there's not much likelihood either side will change their minds any time soon.

Erm, regardless of your position on whether FF is okay or not, does it really need to be explained why breast is the ideal food for a human baby?

I think the truth is, in line with the attidudes underlying the low breast feeding rates, is that it's easier to dismiss BF if you chose to formula feed to feel better about it. We've gone from, yes BF is best but I can't so stop shoving it down our throats, to actively belittling/dismissing breastfeeding claiming it has no health benefits above formula feeding. What a ridiculous notion fueld by marketing companies and lapped up by our society.

Honestly I've learned my lesson posting on this thread, it's not my job to try and change your attitudes, even if in my opinion they'r not good. Carry on demonising and criticising and taking offence to everything in order to support your "choices", regardless of what science and even commion sense tells us. God forbid a mother should be made to feel like there are better options than the one she chose, and god forbid we try to raise the standards of infant feeding in this country Good for you.

I've not read every single post but have skimmed the thread and it has made me feel quite sad ( disclaimer - 36 weeks pregnant and very hormonal). I really haven't come accross anyone in real life who had the problems that I had with breastfeeding my last baby and I was so desperate to do it that I was left devastated and feeling very alone. Basically my baby 100%, totally refused the breast. It wasn't a problem with latch or whatever becuas ewe never even got that far, he just would not go near me. It felt like a huge rejection and I felt like such a failure. I saw 5 different feeding advisors who all said basically 'we really don't see this a lot and don't have any advice'. The support for me, mentally, was woeful. I expressed for six weeks but exclusive expressing really is a special kind of hell and eventually that petered out and we moved onto formula.

I never wanted to formula feed and it broke my heart to do it, but I felt it was my only choice. I am pregnant again and so scared i am going to end up in the same situation again because the whole thing did me no good at all from a mental health point of view. I do believe that breast is best, but sometimes you just can't get there.

I guess the point of my story is that there are loads of formula feeding women who are happy and comfortable with their choice and that's great for them. But there are many more for whom it wasn't a 'choice' and who do feel very emotional and defensive about the implication that we didn't try hard enough. Comments like 'breastfeeding is biologically normal' may be fact, but it certainly didn't feel that way for me and my son and I don't know how to feel about that, even now. I literally do not have a clue what I could have done to change our outcome and I learned nothing to apply to to the situation if it happens again.

To me, yes there are occasionally negative comments that breastfeeders will receive and it's not all a bed of roses, but I genuinely don't think a successful breastfeeder will ever understand the guilt and hurt that a failed one will feel. That's why we are defensive, or why I am at least.

The repeated pleas for us all to get along and support each other ignore the fact that mostly, we do!

Apart from a few individual outliers, women in real life and online understand that feeding babies is filtered through an emotional, cultural, psychological experience. In addition, quite apart from of course being an issue of personal bodily autonomy, many women choose to breastfeed but find themselves in a position where they end up formula feeding.....with mixed feelings sometimes.

I have been a feminist ever since teenage years and became a BF counsellor as a direct consequence of my political beliefs. Supporting and protecting and enabling BF goes alongside support for every woman's right to use her body however she wants, including not using it to BF. Too often, the reason why women don't breastfeed, or don't breastfeed for long, is linked to disregard for women's bodily autonomy, and a belief that her body is not capable of doing the job of a manufacturered alternative. The history of how patriarchal strictures have commodified infant feeding, and undermined breastfeeding is instructive.

Yes, there is a health impact on the mother and the baby. If the effect on babies, even in the clean, modern West, is not convincing (and I find the evidence is good - and growing) try looking at the breast cancer stats.

But stop telling mothers we are judging each other and denigrating each other's feeding. Please.

Mistermagpie, your story is sad.....babies at 36 weeks may not have developed the sucking-swallowing reflexes and their feeding may be uncoordinated, or, as in your case, the baby may appear to reject the breast and be unable to latch on. My guess is your experience was wholly connected to this slight prematurity. If the baby is manhandled a lot - I have seen midwives try to push a reluctant baby on - he may start to scream in protest near the breast, or else switch off and sleep rather than 'engage'.

Does any of this seem like it may have been what happened?

There are ways to engage a preterm baby into BF and ways to protect the milk supply while the problem is resolved.

Next time, you may not even have the problem, but if you do, I do want to assure you, you can do something about it !

Alltheglitters - the ideal food for humans involves a lot of plant based protein, fish and little meat.

Yet many people with terrible diets in the West live a lot longer than those with excellent diets elsewhere.

I agree that BF is what babies are designed to eat, but the fact is that in this WHO region, where we have the lowest BF rates, babies and mums are the healthiest. Babies are less likely to die in Europe than elsewhere. Despite the fact we have the lowest BF rates of all the WHO regions. So why is BF the focus?

BF is great for a whole host of reasons which are uncontroversial (cheaper, can be easier, can cut rates of cancer for mum). But raising rates in this country will have almost 0 effect on the health of babies.

Like the WHO's now abandoned 15% target for C sections, it feels as though BFHI may go the same way with its 500 excess neonatal deaths that none of the BF super supporters here want to discuss.

Tiktok - in order to get the breast cancer benefits don't you have to feed for over a year? And doesn't your risk of breast cancer actually rise in the 2-3 years just after breastfeeding and then fall over your lifetime?

"Breastfeeding your children slightly reduces your risk of breast cancer, and the longer you breastfeed in total, the more your risk of breast cancer is reduced. For example, breastfeeding one child for one year would lower your risk of breast cancer as much as breastfeeding two children for six months each. Current research suggests that breastfeeding can reduce a woman’s breast cancer risk by around 2%."

breastcancernow.org/news-and-blogs/blogs/does-breastfeeding-affect-your-risk-of-breast-cancer

Tiktok - are those really the reasons women don't breastfeed? Are you sure? Where did you get that from?

Maybe the answer is as simple as they don't like being attached to their baby 24/7 unable to go out, or that they find it painful, or embarrassing - and we have a perfectly good alternative.

I find that those who want to control women into having mandated natural births with no pain relief (remember the NMC at one point wanted women to have to pay for epidurals!), those who want there to be no information on formula at all are the ones most likely to call themselves feminist.

Doesn't seem very feminist to me. Seems very reminiscent of the 40s/50s handwringing over women daring to have pain relief in Labour and daring to feed their babies with Formula.

I understand mister as far as I can anyway as everyone's experience is different of course. I also had a difficult experience bfing DC1 and was devastated when it didn't work out for us.

Unfortunately you won't find much sympathy or support from the breastfeeding advocates on this thread - they will see your post as evidence of their argument that society thinks we should be protecting ff women at the expense of bfing women and that we are denying the awesomeness of breastmilk etc. Apparently we are all taking offence as we feel guilty for our 'choices'.

There will be some posts about the benefits of breastfeeding but nothing to acknowledge your difficulties.

I'm pregnant again now and will be trying to feed DC2 myself - I'm hoping that the same issues won't occur this time and we'll have a better shot at it. If it doesn't work out again though, I'll be feeding my baby formula as I think the important thing is a happy, nourished baby and a happy mother.

Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy and I hope feeding works out for you as you want it to this time around.

mistermagpie I'm so, so sorry to hear that

My experience wasn't as awful as yours by any means but the feelings I went through and dealt with when my supply dwindled adown to nothing was actually devastation that I'd never experienced before. my breastfeeding support was a woman coming in after my 24 hour labour to reel off a list of instructions to me without pausing for breath and then walk out again. I could not for the life of me, even in front of her, comfortably hold my baby and get her to latch. I had read soooo much about breastfeeding trying to prepare myself and it made no difference whatsoever to my actual experience. I felt like it should have been the simplest thing ever, and it just wasn't. I remember months on, finally properly clearing out my hospital bag and finding loads of unused breast pads in the pocket. I broke down.

The thing that people don't seem to get, like you said, is for many women formula feeding is second best. It wasn't out first choice, it's what we had to resort to. There seems to be a massive stigma about saying that, in case it offends people who formula feed by choice. I wonder how many people would actually be formula feeding "by choice" if there was proper support and help that was easily accessible and took into account that it can days days or eve weeks for mum and baby to get the hang of breastfeeding, rather than just leaving us to it after we've given birth. I'm pregnant with my second and the first thing I thought after the excitement was, "wow, I can have another shot at breastfeeding". I'm determined to make it work. If I have to resort to formula, then my baby will survive, but I wish people would stop pretending that breastfeeding is a non issue, "do it if it's easy but it's inconsequential if you can't" type thing, because for many mothers it's not like that.

tiktok - sorry i wasn't clear I am 36 weeks pregnant now. DS was born at 38 weeks so full term although a little early, but I had a very fast labour and he was quite 'shocked' for the first week. The midwife in the hospital continually manhandled us both trying to 'help' him latch on, I was sitting with tears streaming down my face and he was purple from screaming while she tried to shove my boob in his mouth, it was horrible. I do believe that this 'intervention' spooked him and certainly won't have helped his aversion to being near the breast, wheras as a gentler approach might have helped.

We also didn't get the supposed 'at least an hour' of skin to skin after the birth that my hospital claims to encourage, because he was born late at night and they wanted to get me up to the ward so as not to disturb the other patients (the midwife told me this herself).

So actually, there are things I have learned and can take forward this time! Thankyou for helping me see that on a bit of a down day.

AllTheGlitters - I 100% agree. Formula was second best to me, not because I think it's 'bad' but because I wanted to breastfeed so badly. I read the books and went to all the classes and we still failed and I had to accept that I was giving my baby something which I felt wasn't 'the best', it didn't really matter what anybody else thought. Thats a very hard thing to come to terms with for any new mum.

I also feel that the advisors and supporters walked away when the issue wasn't resolved in the first two weeks. After than, I never heard from anyone again, even though I was in 'the system'. It was as if the support was only ever meant to be very short-term, but I now know that breastfeeding can take weeks and even months to properly establish. Maybe we would have got there eventually but nobody made me feel like we could.

And it's people like Luna on this thread that I don't understand. "The breastfeeding advocates"

Who are the ones who are being devisive and judgemental? It's certainly not me. In my OP when I was saying about breast milk I did not once belittle formula feeding. I am completely, totally sympathetic with posters like mistermagpie because that's exactly what I went through.

I'm not "advocating" judgemental behaviour on formula feeding, I am advocating for better support for women who want to breastfeed, and dismissing or ignoring the factual benefits of breastfeeding is just one method of minimsing the need for breastfeeding, and therefor the need for support. Why is it that you think for a second that I am not compassionate?

And I have to say on this thread the most divisive posters, who perpetuate the "us and them" attitude, have been those saying they formula feed by choice. It doesn't need to be a case of us and them, of criticism and judgement, why can't we have a discussion about low breastfeeding rates etc without it being seen as a personal attack on FF mothers? In my opinion, yes that is defensive behaviour.

Luna I was on this thread earlier on but gave up. This summary confirms nothing has changed in the pages since I stopped reading!

I certainly don't feel attacked for fomula feeding by the 'breastfeeding advocates 'and never have in the real world or online. The sadness and guilt I feel about it is all mine. I also fully support anyone formula feeding by choice, it wasn't my first choice but other people must do what is right for them and their family.

At the end of the day we are all just trying to be the best parents we can surely? That doesn't look the same for everybody but it doesn't have to be a divisive bunfight either. We should be supporting each other because, god knows, professional support from health care providers is certainly thin on the ground.

Sorry mistermagpie I cross posted with you. You're right, there isn't enough support, and congrats on your pregnancy! 36 weeks, wow :) I'm literally like 5 weeks, I can't believe how long there is to go. I was hoping to start a support thread on mumsnet mainly asking for tips, because I don't actually know anyone IRL who is pregnant or has young DS (I am the first of my friendship group to have DC), and I'd love to have some support and advice. I've already thought about pumping to pull my nipples out before baby starts to feed etc, I think I will make a thread and ask what other people do :)

Sorry I shouldn't have got drawn into an argument, but it does sadden me to see such divisive attitudes to people who want to breastfeed.

Sorry cross posted again, just wanted to say YY to that mister

Allthatglitters if you read back any of my posts you will see that I am in no way belittling or denying the benefits of breastfeeding. I also agree that there needs to be better support for ALL mothers.

My experience has been that I have been on the receiving end of judgement over FFing my son and believe me, it wasn't my first choice! I don't feel guilty about my choices because for me it wasn't a choice. It was formula or nothing.

*I think the truth is, in line with the attidudes underlying the low breast feeding rates, is that it's easier to dismiss BF if you chose to formula feed to feel better about it. We've gone from, yes BF is best but I can't so stop shoving it down our throats, to actively belittling/dismissing breastfeeding claiming it has no health benefits above formula feeding. What a ridiculous notion fueld by marketing companies and lapped up by our society.

Honestly I've learned my lesson posting on this thread, it's not my job to try and change your attitudes, even if in my opinion they'r not good. Carry on demonising and criticising and taking offence to everything in order to support your "choices", regardless of what science and even commion sense tells us. *

Your above post contains the exact kinds of judgemental language that I and other people on this thread have been talking about.

Breastfeeding rated in the UK will remain appallingly low while support is either not available for mothers, or is perceived and experienced by new mothers as being exclusionary. Many mothers on this thread are saying they have felt excluded and ignored by breastfeeding support. Lots of people on this thread are choosing to ignore them.

My experience was the same as mistermagpie - I also feel that the advisors and supporters walked away when the issue wasn't resolved in the first two weeks. If anyone wants to improve breastfeeding rates, isn't it better to listen to experiences like this rather than to dismiss them and start banging on about how brilliant breastfeeding is, or to just minimise them altogether?