Fed is Best!!!!!!

[HotDawg123]

If you choose to breast feed - good for you
If you choose to bottle feed - good for you
But if you choose to be a breast feeding warrior and look at those who choose to bottle feed as scum then I hope you slip in dog shit tomorrow.

The amount of horrible women I've come across who are like this is too many now. And as I am heavily pregnant and have hormone rage it is really pissing me off.

Thank you for listening.

Oops, sorry, magpie, misread your 36 wks.

In your case, then, I feel pretty sure the quick birth meant your baby needed extra gentle patience and handling. I think you are right: the over-zealous handling by the midwife was completely wrong (I expect there were different people trying to have 'a go' which would make things even worse).

This time, perhaps it will help to talk through your experience with a midwife and explain how you felt during these attempts (which are horribly disempowering for the mother) and afterwards when you had to use formula. Even getting it in your notes may help avoid a repeat performance.

Generally, babies who are reluctant to latch need lots of skin to skin and gentle, patient, tender care....not a fight with the would-be latcher-on :(

Allthatglitters - I hope you succeed in BF this time round and get more help and support. But what's the reason for your feeling that FF was so inferior? I ask because I feel that inaccurate claims about how great BF is are leading many women to feel like crap for not managing to BF, and that is totally unnecessary because really there isn't a huge difference between the two ways of feeding.

If we want to give women unbiased information on BF it includes telling them the benefits, putting them in context (i.e. of 1000 BF babies and 1000 FF babies....) and then letting them make up their own minds.

Choice is the key word and women should have good BF support, perhaps starting by training MW better - horrible stories in this thread of people forcing boobs into babies' mouths!

To summarise the benefits:

A lower risk of tummy bugs (can be eliminated if you sterilise bottles well, but obviously this is very time consuming & difficult, this is the key benefit to BF IMO)

It's free, doesn't involve sterilising bottles etc.

A very slightly lower risk of obesity later in life (BUT diet afterwards much more important - see Bangladeshi communities in the UK who are more likely to BF but also more likely to suffer from obesity)

A very slightly higher likelihood of your child having higher IQ (But hard to tease out from parental factors. In addition to this, IQs in the West have steadily risen even as BF rates crashed to their lowest ever)

If you stick at it for 6 months, a very slightly lower risk of future breast cancer. (But drinking less alcohol would have a much greater effect)

Luna

I have apologised for being drawn in but that was to one specific poster, Aloysha I think.

"Unfortunately you won't find much sympathy or support from the breastfeeding advocates on this thread - they will see your post as evidence of their argument that society thinks we should be protecting ff women at the expense of bfing women and that we are denying the awesomeness of breastmilk etc"

This is what I find judgemental and divisive. It's just a shame because I don't think anyone thinks like that IRL or acts like that, but there are some women like me who don't have IRL support from women in the same position as me, so have no one to ask support or advice from. So when I see stuff like this and many other comments on this thread, it makes it difficult.

And it also reaffirms to me the idea that there is such a stigma about questioning women's feeding "choices", that we have to tiptoe around the fact that if breastfeeding education, supports and psotive attitudes are lacking in society to the point where many women give up and see formula as a completely equal alternative, then all we are doing is removing the perceived need for support. THis is evident by the fact that we do have such little support!

But many seem to be too afraid to admit/question whether there is a choice involved if it seems so hard to breastfeed and so tempting to formula feed because that is the way things are set out in this country. It is not an attack on a personal level to say breastfeeding attitudes in this country are suboptimal, but many take it that way, as shown on this thread. It's very hard, I've noticed, to talk about anything regarding motherhood in a positive light because people will choose only to infer that you are criticising what they do by proxy of mentioning the benefits of what they don't do. It's not right as it limits open and honest discussion.

Alyosha, I don't know anyone who supports better help and info about BF who wants no info on formula to be shared - I suppose these ppl exist, but I don't know them! I want ppl to have as much independent info as they like, and frequently link here to First Steps Nutritition who have some great and very detailed info on all formulas in the Uk. This info is much better than the manufacturers in that it tells you about all the brands and formulations in one place. I also support good info about how to formula feed. Any hcp who say to a mother 'I can't give you information about formula because I am not allowed' is simply not telling the truth either deliberately or because she has misunderstood her professional obligations.

Please don't perpetuate the myth that BF babies feed 24/7 and mean their mothers cannot go out. This is simply not the case. When BF is underway and any earlier challenges are resolved, mothers can and do go out, with or without their babies.

Yes, some of the reasons why BF can be difficult are related to patriarchy - the embarrassment about BF is related to using one's body in front of others, the lack of help and supper with problems relates to priorities in health spending and training, the perceived superiority of FF in some quarters is related to a distrust of the female body.

Your 500 excess neonatal deaths is a massively over confident extrapolation from a single outlier paper, which has gained no traction at all - it has been roundly refuted, its maths politely ridiculed, and I don't expect it to surface much again!

I'll just check on something with the breast cancer stats and get back to you:)

Amy

Thank you :) I suppose I feel that it is also superior because of the immune system support, and the fact that my body can adjust it's composition as my baby grows. I also feel (and I know that it's not a big deal and know that there are plenty of ways to bond) that I would like the bond that breastfeeding brings. As well as finding it practically easier and cheaper than formula feeding.

I see a lot of evidence about the immune system support ETC, and I know in modern countries with clean water, vaccinations, good hygeine and nutrition etc that this isn't a matter of life or death by any means, I would like to provide my baby with this if possible. I'd also rather my baby was able to have human milk as opposed to cow's milk, for digestive ease. I know it sounds weird as well, but I'd also like to do it because my body, well, should! I want to see what it is capable of, I want to know that I am providing my baby's nourishment, even if it's difficult :)

Who are the ones who are being and judgemental

With respect you might want to read posts by the likes of skerry. HTH.

luna you forgot us in the pink corner- those who reaaaaaallllyyyy didn't want to breastfeed but are being lumped into the 'breast milk benefits denier' corner. Very frustrating.

Tiktok - you don't know anyone? There are quite a few on this thread & other threads who think that formula should be prescription and that FF shouldn't even be discussed - it shouldn't be a "choice" - women should all just be assumed to BF.

Also, that wasn't me, it was another poster :)

Not all BF babies will feed 24/7, but some will. The mothers of those babies may not want to hang on for 4 more months or even a couple of weeks. They may find it unbearable. That's up to them.

In many very patriachal societies the majority of women BF. Russia, Ukraine, Senegal etc. etc. In fact it is in the societies where women have made the most political and economic gains that have the lowest BF rates.

I posted the reply to the refutation :) Could you link to some hard evidence on why this paper is wrong?

There seems to be a lot of women on MN at least sharing stories of dehydrated babies, with no one advising them to try formula.

Sorry, forgot to add the suggestion to check the big study on hospitalisation related to infant feeding - the uk millennium cohort study, quigley et al.

Study found babies who are FF or mixed fed are more likely to need hospitalisation than BF babies. This is not terribly serious in the west - babies get sick and recover well, happily. But BF saves the health service money, and spares more families from the distress of having a baby in hospital. The hospitalisation was mainly for infection so we can guess that at least some of these babies would have remained well if feeds had been prepared safely; of course all parents using formula need the info on how to do this.

No, I don't know anyone who thinks formula info should not be given and if there has been any poster in this thread who said there should be no formula info given, I've missed it, sorry.

The idea that formula should be on prescription only is bonkers. Quite apart from anything else, giving doctors the power to decide who 'deserves' formula is totally disempowering.

Tiktok, that is indeed IMO one of the key benefits of BF. Easier, no faffing around with bottles.

However it would also be interesting to know how many BF babies were hospitalised for dehydration and/or losing more than 10% of their weight.

Minifingers on other threads has said she thinks (she can come along and correct me if I've got this wrong!) that FF should not even be considered a choice - that women should all be assumed at all stages of pregnancy that they are going to BF.

On other threads people have said formula should be prescription only. Not this thread, but this line of thought does exist. I think it's even been proposed by some as something the WHO should recommend (this guy: www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/baby-formula-industry-combated-sustainable-future).

Diane

I've seen a lot of posts about breastfeeding being shot down and criticised for no real reason, from an outside/neutral perspective. There probably were some harsh ones too. There were also derisive/divisive comments (some by you IMO) aimed at anyone mentioning any breastfeeding benefits.

And no one is "lumping you in" with anything. There are some people on here dismissing any benefits breastfeeding have, it wasn't you. It's not primary school, it's not a case of "he said/she said" so that means anything anyone says applies to everyone.

It doesn't benefit anyone to keep debates about serious things like this down on the level of a squabble, with each "side" determined to be right, and only being interested in taking down eachother's arguments, regardless of any truth in the points made. The tone of your post to me makes me think you are just enjoying the argument.

If mothers decide that breastfeeding is not for them - maybe it's too time consuming or demanding, like your suggestion that a baby of four mths might still be feeding 24/7, and while that will never be literally true, I can believe that it can feel that way - then it is up to them. You are somehow assuming that I think mothers 'ought' to breastfeed. There are many reasons why a mother may not BF, or may not fully BF, or may bf for a short time only......it is her decision and no one else's business if her reasons are'good' or not! She should do what the heck she feels is right for her - but as 80 per cent of mothers who stop BF in the first six weeks would have preferred to continue (uk infant feeding surveys, passim) then we have a lot of sad and disappointed mothers out there.

Worse than disappointed, we know that wanting to BF,and then not doing so, elevates the risk of pnd (maybe psychlogical, maybe hormonal). Sonot giving effective help to those who need it is really bad care.

Some mothers acknowledge the 'push' to BF is internal - they feel this is something they want to do. It's less to do with midwives and others telling them they should, than themselves deciding for themselves they want to do it.

Alyosha, any baby hospitalised for serious loss of weight in the early days, let alone actual dehydration, is the result of poor postnatal care.

Mothers are not told how to check their babies are feeding well.

They are not told about what to expect with nappies.

Midwives may reassure them inappropriately.

Few mothers have a breastfeed fully observed, so a mother can watch for the signs her baby is removing milk effectively.

Babies should be weighed routinely on day 3-4,not day 5 as happens often.

Early signs of poor milk transfer can be spotted, and appropriate action taken (in some cases, this might mean formula sups, but actually in most cases, it doesn't - changing the BF technique, feeding more often, expressing, stops the 'problem' before it becomes too great).

Maybe not being able to BF wouldn't raise the risk of PND if we didn't oversell the benefits of BF!

And tiktok, you truly don't care if women BF - you think it should be up to them, there should be no coercion (i.e. women should be offered formula in hospital if they tell the MW they want to FF?), babies presenting with dehydration should immediately be offered formula (if their mums agree)?

Tiktok - so the answer is, "yes, some babies who BF are hospitalised with dehydration that wouldn't have happened if they were FF". Just as some FF babies are hospitalised with tummy bugs that wouldn't have happened if they were BF.

Perhaps FF babies wouldn't be hospitalised as much if women were shown how to prepare formula safely before they go home, or during the postnatal period. Is that a failure of postnatal care too?

I think both are - and women who choose to BF should be more closely monitored, and those who are FF should be shown how to safely prepare bottles.

Aloysha

When I was in hospital with DD, I had mentioned I wanted to breastfeed. We were there for 12 hours waiting to be discharged. As the evening drew on I became paranoid that DD was not taking enough milk. I went to the desk the midwife was sitting at and asked for formula as I was exhausted, stressed from waiting so long for a discharge and overcome with emotion and reality of having a tiny dependent human, and asked for formula. She gave it to me without batting an eyelid. It wasn;t what I wanted to do at all, but I was worried for DD and not confident in my ability to breastfeed her. The point is, not everyone who wants to feed formula is doing so because they don't want to breastfeed, in many cases it's because they are struggling with breastfeeding. There is a lack of willingness to both offer support and accept that it is needed in this country, and it seems to effect many women. The pain I felt not being able to breastfeed was very real. It's the same for many other women.

Also, why should there be zero coercion to BF? You have to ask youself what reasons are behind a woman chosing to formula feed without even trying breastfeeding, despite the benefits for herself and baby. And before you jump down my throat because you've made your views on this very clear, even if there were no differences between the milk, at the very least BF is safer vs sterilising bottles and undoubtedly cheaper, so why such a negative attitude towards?

Yes there will be cirumstances that prevent a woman breastfeeding when she planned to, and yes there will be circumastances where due to trauma etc a woman will chose or know she is not able to before the birth, to formula feed. BuT I guarantee you those legitimate reasons will not apply to the majority of women giving birth. So why shouldn't breastfeeding be encouraged?

Glitters i have been sneered at, criticised for my life choices and taken it all in good humour. When I dared to mention my personal benefits of ff I got jumped on for no reason.

I have never denied the benefits of bf, yet I have been accused of doing so by certain posters.

I think you should AS skerry before you think her motives are genuine.

And as for an arguement? You have jumped onto a thread that you clearly haven't read and started laying into people. So I think it may be you That wants a row.

If babies are dehydrated, then it is a medical emergency. The correct clinical response is to deal with it - but this might not be with formula. Under medical supervision, the correct response may be BF, expressed breastmilk, formula, IV fluids, donor breastmilk.....the key is recognising a clinical need, and if the mother wishes to BF, her milk supply should be protected alongside whatever treatment is given.

These situations do not happen with well, term babies who have had good postnatal care.

She should do what the heck she feels is right for her - but as 80 per cent of mothers who stop BF in the first six weeks would have preferred to continue (uk infant feeding surveys, passim) then we have a lot of sad and disappointed mothers out there.

Yes. IMO the real disgrace is not judgment of FFers (I've seen hardly any of that, on MN or otherwise). It's that we have so many women who want to BF but are not given the right support to do so successfully. And go through misery as a result.

And in turn, that leads to other women who don't even want to try BF, because they've heard it's a nightmare.

If the govt really wants to get BF numbers up it needs to invest in proper BF advice and aftercare.

"Also, why should there be zero coercion to BF? You have to ask youself what reasons are behind a woman chosing to formula feed without even trying breastfeeding, despite the benefits for herself and baby. And before you jump down my throat because you've made your views on this very clear, even if there were no differences between the milk, at the very least BF is safer vs sterilising bottles and undoubtedly cheaper, so why such a negative attitude towards?"

There should be 0 coercion because a woman's decision on how she feeds her baby is hers to make alone. It isn't for anyone to question. Almost every pregnant woman in the country will have been given information on BF, and if they choose not to, it's no one's place to question that.

Tiktok - do you agree that both FF & BF issues could be resolved through better postnatal care? Are they not kind of the same thing? Lack of information and support leading to hospitalisation?

"I don't know anyone who supports better help and info about BF who wants no info on formula to be shared - I suppose these ppl exist, but I don't know them!"

I met them they gave me shit support when I was desperately trying to feed my baby myself and getting poorlier every day. When I had to be hospitalised, my mil asked the midwife who came to see me how she could feed the baby if I was in hospital. The midwife said "I am not allowed to tell you but it is [head pointing] that stuff." My desperate husband had gone out to get formula in the night while we waited for someone to show up. It was sitting on the coffee table.
I shouldn't bother with these threads because the barely concealed sanctimony just upsets me.

Diana

I'm not going to argue with you, I really don't want to engage TBH, but I actually have read the whole thread, I've seen all the comments you've made, and I don't really see much constructive input, and have seen some ganging up on perfectly sensible posters. But I'm not going to have an argument with you about an argument.

tiktok you are so wise, I wish I could use you as my breastfeeding guardian when my baby is born :(

Well good, you can stop addressing me then can't you?

If you support the poster than thinks it's ok to preach about breast feeding to a woman that has survived breast cancer, you are certainly not worth engaging with.

Good day!

Aloysha

In an ideal world yes jmaybe, but I think the problem a lot of us who have been labelled "breastfeeding advocates" on this thread is that it is not black and white. And the very point is a lot of women chose to breastfeed but then can'd do it successfully. It's not as simple as choosing to breastfeed or formula feed and it working out perfectly.

In addition to that, formula milk is not a perfect equal to breat milk for babies, so if it is purely down to choice then why is it okay to make the sub par choice with no other reasoning? It's also a woman's choice to smoke during pregnancy, but we all know there are potential health implications with that. Why is it so wrong to acknoweledge that many women (rightly, with evidence) that breastfeeding milk is more beneficial, cheaper and safer? As someone said earlier, it's not a choice made in a vacuum, there are a wealth of factors to take into consideration. It is massively oversimplifying to say, "oh it's my choice so don't say anything about it to me."