Fed is Best!!!!!!

[HotDawg123]

If you choose to breast feed - good for you
If you choose to bottle feed - good for you
But if you choose to be a breast feeding warrior and look at those who choose to bottle feed as scum then I hope you slip in dog shit tomorrow.

The amount of horrible women I've come across who are like this is too many now. And as I am heavily pregnant and have hormone rage it is really pissing me off.

Thank you for listening.

why is it okay to make the sub par choice with no other reasoning?

Because we are allowed to.

Alyosha, you ask about coercion. I don't think coercion belongs to any part of maternity care. People should be counselled individually, so they can be supported in their own choices.

I have seen, heard and experienced many instances where formula has been 'pushed' onto BF mothers without other options being explored. I have also come across serious BF problems which have been left to get worse, because the hcp did not know how to deal with them - and the mother has ended up fully FF because a crisis happened that only formula would resolve, leaving the mother upset and thinking she was somehow at fault.

I think it's a leap to suggest that pnd is linked to knowledge of BF benefits, and these should not be discussed or they should be somehow suppressed in case the mother cannot BF and then gets pnd.....to me, that's infantilising.

For a good and recent overview of health impact including the breast cancer effect, see www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00210-5/abstract.

The two per cent reduction in risk in your link is a conservative interpretation of the figures and very rough and not very helpful ( does not talk about length of BF, or exclusivity) - but even so, this figure which is for 'any breastfeeding' , I guess, is worthwhile.

Glitters

BF and FF are different. I'm really not convinced that the actual substance of breast milk is so superior to FF. In this country two mums with the same background one choosing FF and one BF, there will be almost 0 difference between their babies' outcomes.

If women want to breastfeed they should have good support.

If they want to FF they should have support, including watching how to make a feed up.

Both would help to cut hospitalisations.

Some babies who are BF are hospitalised. If they'd been FF they wouldn't have been. And vice versa.

Tiktok: Many women here have shared their experience of feeling as though they were pushed into BF.

We can talk about the (very slight) benefits of BF.

I was talking about overselling the benefits - a lot of the time, the benefits are not contextualised. Women are also not made aware of the confounding factors of parental background and income.

2% is worthwhile if you want to BF. But reducing alcohol cuts risk but a lot more than that!

God Diana

That's so mature. Let's all smoke and drink through our pregnancies despite evidence that it's detrimental. It might be a sub par choice but hey ho, it's our choice right! Who cares about what's best for our babies, right?

Ergh I just really don't want to get into a discussion with you.

tiktok you're absolutely right. I'm hoping to receive more support this time and I think for many mothers we're not aware of how to ask for support when it is going wrong. I couldn't get a good latch, I wasn't comfortable, I wanted to breast feed, no one seemed to care. Maybe if I'm firmer this time it will be different?

I was referring to formula feeding being our choice

Why so hysterical dude?!

If you're seriously putting smoking and drinking on par with not breastfeeding you need to have a word with yourself.

I'm not "hysterical", "dude"

I'm criticising your attitude to what I posted. If FF and BF were equally easy and accessible for all women, but BF still had the benefits of being the biologically correct thing to feed your baby, you claim that it's still a woman's choice and so we can just disregard the evidence, because it's "her choice".

You know full well what I was getting at re smoking during pregnancy, of course smoking is much much worse, and I stand by it. I am not addressing you anymore, I think your attitudes are nasty and you seem to relish antagonising and ganging up on people. I hope it's because you're behind a screen and you're not like that IRL.

I came on here to post because posters you seem to agree with are claiming that BF has no health benefits over FF. That's not true. I did not come in here to engage in a petty argument with someone like you. I'm glad that your decisions have no influence over my children, very glad indeed in your case Diana, but it doesn't mean I don't find the lack of support for breastfeeding sad, and a society that perpetuates the notion that no one should ever question FF ever is has a lot to answer for regarding our low breastfeeding rates as a population.

You are not as in individual important enough to be important enough to have influence over the status quo, but collectively attitude is important and that's why it's so disheartening to see people like you posting. It's not formula feeding that's the problem, it's the attitudes behind it. The way as it's the attitudes of some behind the "Breastapo" etc that is detrimental, not breastfeeding itself.

Alyosha, it appears not to be true that two babies with the same background have the same health outcomes and that their infant feeding picture is irrelevant.

Of course, I am not saying that if you match any two babies, you will see a difference.

But if you take a look at studies which are big, and which control for social/economic background, even in the UK, you'll see that bf plays a role in closing the health inequality gap.

So a baby who by socio-economic background would be deemed to be more at risk of health issues than another baby from a different background, has some of this risk attenuated if he is breastfed. Not all - breastfeeding is not a magic bullet that somehow removes poverty or poor life chances or rubbish housing or unemployment.

There are a number of studies which show this - the link with health inequalities has been at least part of the driver for breastfeeding promotion and support within the health services.

Clearly, the difference shows up in babies who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. On the basis of risk of hospitalisation, infection and other morbidities, they appear to have measurable gains from breastfeeding compared to formula feeding. You won't get the same closing of the gap if you look at two babies from prosperous backgrounds, 'cos there is no gap to close :)

glitter I never said to disregard the evidence.

I'm not sure why you're putting words in my mouth!

The fact is that one can decide how one feeds ones baby. Shitting all over that just comes across as patronising. HTH.

I'm not sure why you're so offended by people making the 'sub par' as you describe it, decision to give their baby formula.

Seriously, don't worry about other people's children focus on your own.

You are either willfuly ignoring or incapable of understanding the wider context of the points I'm making.

As I literally just said, it's not formula feeding mothers that I worry about, it's the attitude behind the prevalence of formula feeding that I have a problem with, especially when, compounded with other factors, it reduces the perceived need for breastfeeding support. it is not a personal attack on you or anyone else from atop a high horse, it is a legitmate concern that impacts on me and thousands of women like me, from a mother who formula fed.

So no, it's not good enough to tell me to just mind my own business and get on with it. Although why I expect sensible responses ona goady, divisive thread from goady, divisive posters is beyond me. Must be the hormones.

You see on that I agree with you! No, it shouldn't be dismissed. I totally agree with you on that. I really really do.

What I have a problem with is (and this isn't aimed at you) the sneering at people who choose formula feeding when they are aware of all the facts. There's just no need for it. I chose it, it works for me. I have 2 family members that bf, it works for them. If they tried to tell me that what I chose is 'sub par', they would get a face from me. Why? Because quite frankly it isn't their business.

If there isn't enough information and help for breastfeeding mothers, the people that care about it so much need to get off their arses and change it. Not blame people like me who happily use formula and don't push it on anyone else. It's pretty simple.

Tiktok - Your post kind of agrees with me, no?

"Clearly, the difference shows up in babies who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. On the basis of risk of hospitalisation, infection and other morbidities, they appear to have measurable gains from breastfeeding compared to formula feeding. You won't get the same closing of the gap if you look at two babies from prosperous backgrounds, 'cos there is no gap to close smile"

So for the people from prosperous backgrounds, BFing doesn't make any difference to their short term or long term health outcomes...so we agree on this!

It would be interesting to see the other studies - I am sure that babies would be less likely to hospitalised with tummy bugs if BF. But what other equality gaps does BFing close? If BFing doesn't make a difference to equally prosperous babies then why do poorer babies benefit from it? If it's just about infections then to me it seems that a big focus on how to feed formula in the most safe way would do a lot to close the gap.

Especially as years and years of single minded BF promotion has not made inroads into the communities least likely to BF.

I am also equally sure that if everyone BF there would more hospitalisations from dehydration, which you also seem to agree with.

Allthatglitters

In addition to that, formula milk is not a perfect equal to breat milk for babies, so if it is purely down to choice then why is it okay to make the sub par choice with no other reasoning?

Because women are entitled to choose what they do with their own bodies.

What do you think would be a satisfactory reasoning for someone choosing for FF their baby? And who chooses what is satisfactory and what isn't? What do you mean by 'choice'?

Again just to confirm that I have never been anti breastfeeding and I agree that there should be more support for women in general, however they choose to feed their babies.

Well I'l glad we agree :) The sub par thing was actually in the context of a hypothetical situation where BF and FF are equally easy and accessible, in response to something another poster put. I also agree that it's no one's place to judge a mother on a personal level for forumla feeding, absolutely. And I don't think anyone is blaming the prevalence of formula feeding on the mothers themselves, I'm certainly not. Maybe I got a few looks taking my little DD out and giving her a bottle (don't ever recall, but it could have happened).

Maybe they were looking at me thinking "lazy cow, not breastfeeding, I bet it's because she's a young mum" or something, but little did they know how many times I had cried, how many times I had pumped and pumped and pumped to get 20ml, while trying to look after a newborn, how seeing something as inane as a breastpad six months later could bring all the pain back and have me in tears on the bathroom floor. So no, I never agree with judging someone for their feeding choices, because however ambivalent someone may appear to be, I know firsthand how awful it feels, I did it to myself. Oh god that's made me cry just writing that and I'm at work, shit! haha.

DianaMemorialJam, I think you are right in drawing attention to the language used whenever this sort of thing is debated. I can't think of any area of health or behaviour where it would be acceptable to tell someone, even on a talkboard, that something they were doing was 'sub-par' - even if it's done in abstract terms ie 'this is sub-par' and not 'you are doing something sub-par'....both are unacceptable, if we're trying to be polite, at any rate :)

I keep saying this, but I rarely see out-and-out 'blaming and shaming' of formula feeding mothers. Of course, idiots and dickheads and rude people do exist, and people who are just terrible at expressing themselves, but mostly, mothers are non-judgmental, careful and sensitive . The effect of those who really do 'blame and shame' is far greater than their small number would suggest.

You say, "If there isn't enough information and help for breastfeeding mothers, the people that care about it so much need to get off their arses and change it."

Ha! I have been getting off my arse for years! Much of the support for bf mothers is voluntary and the campaigning and lobbying of government that has led to some of the improvements in bf support has involved the volunteer sector as well. And just for interest, people who are trained in bf support, and who belong to organisations that train and nurture them, are not among the blamers and shamers (or should not be.....). They are not accepted for training if they even start with that sort of attitude.

"Unfortunately you won't find much sympathy or support from the breastfeeding advocates on this thread - they will see your post as evidence of their argument that society thinks we should be protecting ff women at the expense of bfing women and that we are denying the awesomeness of breastmilk etc" (that was me)

This is what I find judgemental and divisive. It's just a shame because I don't think anyone thinks like that IRL or acts like that, but there are some women like me who don't have IRL support from women in the same position as me, so have no one to ask support or advice from. So when I see stuff like this and many other comments on this thread, it makes it difficult.

I am telling you that I have had this experience IRL. Many women on this thread have had this experience IRL. People have been saying these things on this thread. Please stop dismissing my experience because you disagree with it.

If mothers decide that breastfeeding is not for them - maybe it's too time consuming or demanding, like your suggestion that a baby of four mths might still be feeding 24/7, and while that will never be literally true, I can believe that it can feel that way - then it is up to them. You are somehow assuming that I think mothers 'ought' to breastfeed. There are many reasons why a mother may not BF, or may not fully BF, or may bf for a short time only......it is her decision and no one else's business if her reasons are'good' or not! She should do what the heck she feels is right for her - but as 80 per cent of mothers who stop BF in the first six weeks would have preferred to continue (uk infant feeding surveys, passim) then we have a lot of sad and disappointed mothers out there.

Worse than disappointed, we know that wanting to BF,and then not doing so, elevates the risk of pnd (maybe psychlogical, maybe hormonal). Sonot giving effective help to those who need it is really bad care.

YES Tiktok.

There needs to be more support for this 80% of women.

I was in this 80% and ended up with PND. Some of the messages I received about breastfeeding were really damaging and I would love for there to be a structure in place to prevent these experiences - mine is by no means an isolated case.

Messages such as 'everyone can do it if they are determined / try hard enough' 'people have struggled through the same struggles as you and gone on to EBF' 'lactation failure is very rare' 'tongue tie doesn't prevent feeding' were given to me frequently and were devastating.

Lactation consultants were interested in my struggles while I was handing over £100 per consultation but when I contacted them later on with no improvement despite doing everything I had been advised to do, everyone was surprisingly silent.

At one point I was sobbing to DH that I thought I should go back to work early and we should put DC in nursery as I didn't think DC really liked me very much and thought I was a bit of a shit mother for not being able to feed him. I genuinely thought it was better and fairer for him to be with someone who could look after him properly, rather than me, his failure of a mother.

Where was my support? I was completely alone. People were happy to take my money to give me the same information about latch, pumping, increasing my supply (I didn't have one really!) and false hope over and over again but then when breastfeeding didn't work out, they were the first people to judge me.

I concede that the phrase I used was wrong. I suppose I struggle how you navigate the fact that breastfeeding is, if purely down to choice in a case which both options are accessible to the mother, something I and IMO science shows is better for the baby, while still maintaining that formula is an equally good option. It's a perfectly valid option, but I feel like equating it to breastfeeding is not accurate and is purely to spare the feelings of women who don't breastfeed (even if they don't need their feelings spared because they are happy with their choice), and doesn't promote breastfeeding in a positive way. That doesn't mean to say that there aren't wrong ways to go about promoting breastfeeding/giving the facts that it is beneficial, but it still doesn't sit right with me. I'm aware that that is my opinion though (which I am entitled to voice).

Lunar I think I have misread your post and you have also misread my response. I'm not "minimising" your experience, I meant I hoped that people on the thread didn't act the way they were acting, I didn't mean that you hadn't experienced it. And I wasn't even referring to the last sentence of your post, I was quoting where you said you "won't get any sympathy from breastfeeding advocates". That is what I find a divisive generalisation. Rightly so.

Ayosha - you said, "Tiktok - Your post kind of agrees with me, no?"

Er, no :) I was referring solely to the studies on hospitalisation, infection and other illnesses (which only cover a part of the impact on health) which show up as being socially and economically mediated, and where the disadvantaged bf baby has a reduced risk compared to the disadvantaged ff baby.

"So for the people from prosperous backgrounds, BFing doesn't make any difference to their short term or long term health outcomes...so we agree on this!"

No, again :) I was referring to studies on health inequalities and specific health outcomes - I actually don't know of any studies that look solely at babies from a prosperous background.....however, we do know that all babies are at reduced risk of gastro infections and respiratory infections, regardless of background. On the basis of what we already know about bf and its effects, you might well find longer-term differences between babies all of a prosperous background, , but I really don't think we have the evidence to be sure how marked these might be, and there is certainly no evidence to say bfing 'doesn't make any difference' to their long term health outcomes. Whatever....would you not be supportive of an initiative that actually made a difference to poorer babies' health, or is it just the prosperous babies you think count in all this? Surely not.

This is not correct, either:

"Especially as years and years of single minded BF promotion has not made inroads into the communities least likely to BF."

We have had about 25 years of focussed breastfeeding propmotion (not really single minded, and actually fairly haphazard) and it has shown marked effects in low-bf communities - see the UK Infant Feeding surveys for comparative stats on this.

"I am also equally sure that if everyone BF there would more hospitalisations from dehydration, which you also seem to agree with.:"

Well.....actual dehydration is commoner among bf babies, but clinically speaking, this is a result of poor postnatal care. To use this as a justification for routine formula feeding or prophylactic supplementing with formula (as some people do actually suggest) is the same as saying that we would reduce all complications of vaginal birth by making the caesarean section rate 100 per cent.

Luna your story is heart-breaking :(

It is beyond cruel to tell women, or even allow them to think, they are 'not trying hard enough' to bf, and then to judge them, or even allow them to think they are being judged, if they stop bf.

I don't want to get involved in the back and forth argument that's going on here, but what stands out to me is that you have women on this thread, this site and also ones that I know in real life who complain (for want of a better word) that breastfeeding and the 'breast is best' message are pushed far too hard by health care professionals and put women under too much pressure.

On the other hand, you have got people like me and others on this thread who were absolutely committed to the idea of breastfeeding, determined to do it and desperate to make it work who, for various reasons, felt unsupported and ignored by the health care professionals who should have been there to help them.

These two things seem so at odds to me, that I think something is really going wrong here in how the NHS is handling both the messages around and the support for breastfeeding.

I actually said:

"won't get any sympathy from breastfeeding advocates ON THIS THREAD ". I am happy to be quoted but please quote the whole point for accurate context.

The evidence is there on the thread - you only need to check back a couple of pages (granted this is mightily tedious as this thread is longer than some ice ages).

glitter I'm really sorry that it is a hard subject for you. We are made to feel shite from day one about something or another.

Genuinely, I hope for you this time round there is support for you to breastfeed as it's clearly something you want to do and feel so passionate about. But know whatever you do, you will be awesome.

And good luck with the birth obvs!