Fed is Best!!!!!!

[HotDawg123]

If you choose to breast feed - good for you
If you choose to bottle feed - good for you
But if you choose to be a breast feeding warrior and look at those who choose to bottle feed as scum then I hope you slip in dog shit tomorrow.

The amount of horrible women I've come across who are like this is too many now. And as I am heavily pregnant and have hormone rage it is really pissing me off.

Thank you for listening.

Ebf is associated with those who are more privileged? Not heard that before. Isn't that like saying rich/posh people only have Cesareans?

Tinsel, I agree, Great link.

It is a feminist issue because controlling women's bodies - by telling them how they should give birth (as painfully as possible) and how they should feed (at maximum effort, with no attention to their own mental health) - seems to be the MO of some BF and natural birth advocates.

What a fascinating point. I had never thought of it that way. But isn't it odd that it's women who have this misogynist attitude towards childbirth and bf?

Controlling womens access to information under the guise of politeness, thus controling the choices they make regarding their bodies, is a feminist issue!

Men sharing correct information about mens health would never be labelled as "unsupportive daddy wars"

In response to the breastfeeding groups - i do think its hugely important that they exist. It helps to go somewhere and have a moan about the cluster feeds/leaky boobs/night feeds etc without being made to feel like a sanctimommy for breastfeeding. Of course the discussions are laregly similar to any baby group, but the ethos is yeh breastfeeding can be shit but these are some tips that i do rather than an eye roll and a "just give a bottle and stop being a martyr" attitude that some mums who ff have. For what its worth there are some exclusivle formula fed babies and combi fed babies with their mums at the bf group i go to who fit in well because were lucky that none of us actually give a shit how each other feeds their kid, we just like and support each other!

*Controlling womens access to information under the guise of politeness, thus controling the choices they make regarding their bodies, is a feminist issue!
*

x 100

It is a feminist issue because controlling women's bodies - by telling them how they should give birth (as painfully as possible) and how they should feed (at maximum effort, with no attention to their own mental health) - seems to be the MO of some BF and natural birth advocates

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

It seems that whatever way you feed your baby, it's frowned upon by someone.

Breastfeeding mums are often shamed for feeding in public and told to do it elsewhere, or given funny looks if they say they breastfed their child past the age of 1.

Formula feeding mums are shamed for giving their babies formula and often made to feel like they're second best.

Then there's people like me, who get it from both sides. I exclusively express. My daughter was born premature and struggled to latch. She wasn't able to transfer enough milk using nipple shields either and had poor weight gain. We stayed an extra week in hospital with the breastfeeding specialist to try and sort it out but it just wasn't working, so I decided to continue expressing for her (which I had been doing anyway while she was tube fed).

Breastfeeding mum's often ask if I've tried nursing again and make me feel like I didn't try hard enough.

Formula feeding mums tell me that it sounds like too much hard work to feed with a bottle anyway and say I should just switch to formula.

Surely we should just all support each other?

You hit the nail on the head xmamfax.

Just fuck off. Seriously.

User - yes, breastfeeding is associated with more privileged mums: bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/6/e002765

"Outside London, the proportion of the local population from a Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) background, compared with those from a White British background, was associated with higher breastfeeding (1–3% increase in odds per unit increase in the proportion from a BME background). Area-based deprivation was associated with reduced odds of breastfeeding (21–32% reduced odds comparing most deprived quintile to least deprived quintile). Weaker associations were observed between sociodemographic factors and breastfeeding in London PCTs."

Tinsel - I'm aware that there is research that shows BF has benefits in developed countries too, but as BF in this countries is so associated with the most privileged, it is very difficult to tease out the effects of deprivation on health and the effects of BF on health.

In terms of large population studies, the fact that France (yes France again) has lower BF rates even than us but better health outcomes shows that actually maybe the answer to better health doesn't lie in promoting BF - maybe there are other things we can do to help reduce mortality and morbidity in newborns, like supporting their mums properly....

And, as no one has addressed this, there is evidence that the WHO method of promoting EBF has potentially led to 500 excess newborn deaths!

Tinsel - are women aware of how small the effects of FF vs. BF are though in a developed country with good water supply??

The way the NHS bangs on about it you'd think it had the same transformative effect as early years intervention (sure start) or vaccination. It really doesn't.

Don't want to get into the debate at all but just wanted to gently point out that rates of infant mortality alone aren't indicators that breast milk has only marginal benefits over formula milk. There are substances in human breast milk that cannot be replicated within formula, such as antibodies and growth hormones, as well potentially substances we are not aware of as yet. Breast milk will also be tailored by the body to the baby's individual needs and can balance vitamins and antibodies based on what the baby needs at that time.

Hope people understand I don't mean to cause offence by pointing that out, and am not implying that formula milk is not an acceptable alternative, am just responding specifically to the comment that breast milk has no/marginal benefits over formula milk, as, with all due respect, that is a slight misinformation for anyone reading this thread which could have influence over their own choices :)

Alyosha I think I love you a little. What fantastic points.

All Chemical analysis of breast milk shows only an additional protein that helps with gut infection. And that help is marginal at best-

'Some of the magical thinking about breast-feeding stems from a common misconception. Even many doctors believe that breast milk is full of maternal antibodies that get absorbed into the baby’s bloodstream, says Sydney Spiesel, a clinical professor of pediatrics at Yale University’s School of Medicine. That is how it works for most mammals. But in humans, the process is more pedestrian, and less powerful. A human baby is born with antibodies already in place, having absorbed them from the placenta. Breast milk dumps another layer of antibodies, primarily secretory IgA, directly into the baby’s gastrointestinal tract. As the baby is nursing, these extra antibodies provide some added protection against infection, but they never get into the blood.'

I also find it odd that people think The BF movement is feminist, based on what I know if it's roots':
'But now and again, mothers would fight back. In the U.S., the rebellion against formula began in the late ’50s, when a group of moms from the Chicago suburbs got together to form a breast-feeding support group they called La Leche League. They were Catholic mothers, influenced by the Christian Family Movement, who spoke of breast-feeding as “God’s plan for mothers and babies.” Their role model was the biblical Eve (“Her baby came. The milk came. She nursed her baby,” they wrote in their first, pamphlet edition of The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding, published in 1958).'

allthatgillters- you make a very important point.

We are only becoming aware of the lifelong benefits of breastfeeding babies Adult diseases like cancer, diabetes, cardiovasular disease, asthma, allergies. high cholesterol, and inflammatory bowel disease.

In fact rather than sweeten things by suggesting the "benefits" of breastfeeding, perhaps we should talk of the "risks" of formula?

Breastfeeding is biologically normal after all.

Nanny I'm afraid that's simply not true. Breast milk contains 5 different immunoglobins which the milk can produce if baby is ill. There are also hormones in the milk that are beneficial for baby. I'm not getting into the FF vs BF debate but it's not fair to spread misinformation. Breast milk has been proven to be beneficial for NICU babies for this reason as well as the easier digestibility of human milk.

And skerry is also right to say that there is no evidence that BF does not have an impact on the health of adults. In fact larger organisations like the NHS state that it does indeed have lifelong benefits.

People who agree based on evidence that breast milk has health benefits unique to it are not "banging on" about it to be detrimental to people who don't breast feed. It is simple fact and nothing more. I don't really understand the motivation/benefits to dismissing this information.

Babies are born with a leaky gut for a reason.

It preserves the structure and functionality of immunoglobulins and other proteins from human milk.

When fed cow milk unfortunately the gut also allows large cow molecules to enter the baby's bloodstream, which set up immunological cascades in the baby's developing immune system.

And the quote you provided is, for lack of a better word, weird Where does it come from, does the site have an agenda? Because while the milk does produce antibodies that reside in the digestive system that is by no means a marginal benefit. An infant has an underdeveloped immune system and the breast milk fulfils/takes over the role of the placenta to carry on supporting babies underdeveloped system. It is natural and what the babies body is designed to receive.

The role of probiotics in relation to adult health is become more and more recognised as important because we are beginning to understand just how important gut flora is to health and nutrient absorption. It might be early to suggest but I think in future we may understand even more than we already do the importance of the substances breastmilk provides babies. That doesn't mean that women who can't breastfeed should feel bad, but IMHO it does mean that we should support breastfeeding rates as much as we possibly can, and offer much more support than we currently do, as well as supporting the alternatives if latching/TT are proving to be barriers too big to overcome, such as feeding expressed milk.

And it's worrying to see people happy to try and minimise the benefits of breastfeeding, it's a sign of the world we live in I think, we don't even take our own natural hunter gatherer diet seriously (in general, in the developed world), and I think this is in large part due to the enormous profit involved in an industrialised diet.

While I don't think there is a problem with using formula as an alternative (I used formula, but I wanted to breast feed, it was my own fault but I do feel if I had more support I would have carried on successfully) if it's necessary, and yes you will have lots of wonderful opportunities to feed your baby exactly what they need, I think the worrying think is just how prevalent formula is over breastfeeding, and I think more can be done to support women in feeding naturally. Not least because formula feeding cost me in the region of £70 a month for a year!!

I know there is a fine line between encouraging breastfeeding and coming across as judgemental, especially because it is such an emotionally charged subject. But I wonder if sometimes we have gone too far the other way. When I was in hospital with newborn DD I was terrified she wasn't getting enough milk. Instead of a midwife saying to me, "don't worry, colostrum is very rich, they don't need a lot, you're doing fine", I was handed a bottle and left to get on with it. I know that's just my experience and yes there are circumstances where feeding formula is necessary but we can't pretend that for the majority of babies, breastfeeding can work just fine. It's the support we are lacking, from providers and from each other. It's a very difficult subject to broach without someone inferring criticism or judgement it seems!

In the effort tp spare feelings we pussy foot around the topic.

My good friend is a Health visitor. She has run a breastfeeding support group in a very deprived area. In that time the breastfeeding rates there have risen from 8% to 55%.

She has the personal view that formula tins should carry health warnings.

I hope that the HV who thinks formula should carry health warnings doesn't share that view in words or tone when she "cares" for mums Iike me who were too poorly to feed their baby.

mrsdoyle- No-one disputes that formula can be a lifesaver.

Do you think that people involved in breastfeeding support are not supposed to have private thoughts?

Given that most breastfeeding problems have been caused by widespread formula use.

skerrywind wow, that is amazing! [shocked] And just a taste of what good caring support can achieve.

MrsDoyle I think the problem is that incendiary comments like that, as well as the very personal reaction people take to them as well as the generalisation that everyone who supports breastfeeding feels that way, is exactly what causes divides and hinders our ability to discuss these things openly and freely. No one (in their right minds) would be critical of a woman too ill to breastfeed, and of course it does happen. But that doesn't mean that in general, we should support breastfeeding without having to fear that we would cause offence to people who haven't been able to breastfeed successfully, or for as long as they would have liked.

I didn't succesfully breastfeed, I was combination feeding from almost day one and as a result my supply dwindled, in under 3 months I had given up completely, I couldn't get DD to latch well from the start and the introduction of the bottle meant she became too frustrated with my nipples and would cry. I formula fed. It doesn't mean I am defensive about my choices, I just want there to be more support so that women can have a better chance to breastfeed. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there who struggled with feeding but could have, and would have liked to! I'm newly pregnant with my second child and I want to do everything I can to do it this time, that will probably involve lots of discussion and support about how to do it, but the lack of support we currently have will probably make it harder, and that's sad :(

Nanny - I'm flattered! :D

Everyone else - the "lifelong benefits" of BF cannot be disentangled from the fact that those who breastfeed in the West are generally more privileged. In the west wealth is associated with being thinner and scoring better on IQ tests. Even then the BF advantage is marginal.

The most important factor in whether your child will become obese is a) your own weight and b) what you feed them after they're off milk.

It's possible to have support for BF mums who want it without everyone else being forced into something they either have no interest in or find very painful. I want to BF as it seems easier than FF and the idea of burning 250-500 calories a day is very appealing!

There is little evidence to show that increasing EBF in this country will do anything at all for neonatal mortality or perinatal mortality.

In fact, as I have been repeating on this thread, there is instead evidence that it could raise neonatal mortality, as a result of "sudden newborn collapse syndrome", which occurs when a baby is very dehydrated. If you look upthread you can see the scientific article which talks about how the focus on BF through the Baby friendly hospitals initiatives may have led to an extra 500 neonatal deaths in Europe.