Noisy toddler next door

[Sukie272]

I live in a small flat and my next-door neighbours have a toddler who is about 2. This child seems to stay up all night as well as most of the day- he screams, cries, yells, bangs toys on the walls and runs around their flat constantly, until around 3am.
The walls are very thin, so he wakes me up repeatedly. After 6 months of being woken 4-5 times a night (the sound of him running on hardwood floors sounds like someone is hamnering nails into the floor) I complained to landlord. He agreed this level of noise at night is unacceptable and spoke to the family. For a few weeks the noise calmed down and they seemed to make an effort to keep him away from the partition wall at night, but now the noise is unbearable again.
I've tried politely talking to the parents (who are Eastern European and don't speak much English), I've also put leaflets under their door about SureStart and other sources of help. At times I bang on the wall in desperation. I just want some peace and quiet!
Is it normal for a 2-year-old to cry for several hours every day, and to run around screaming for hours at a time, several times a night? I'm worried he may be being abused/neglected... should I contact Social Services? The parents rarely take him out of the flat, so maybe he is just bored?
I'm in first trimester of pregnancy and currently off work sick, so I can't escape the noise even in the daytime. I feel so angry that these people let their child cause such a disturbance! Earplugs make little difference, and I can hear him in every room in my flat, even though my bedroom is not next to the partition wall.
What can I do about this? Does anyone have a similar experience?

Did you call your landlord to complain again today OP?

FWIW I think the responses here have been surprisingly in favour of the unruly toddler's parents. I thought you'd get more sympathy OP.

Reading this thread, any expectant parent will be quaking with fear at the prospect of baby turning into toddler. They're really not that bad! Speaking from my own experience of course.

I live in terraced housing. When I was preparing to sleep train my ds, I warned my neighbours and apologised in advance. Then I got them a box of chocolates at Christmas to thank them for their patience. I think a little consideration goes a long, long way.

I don't think the op is coming over as smug . I think her posts are generally quite well thought out.

I think a little consideration goes a long, long way.

I agree. Op, for example, could have some consideration for her neighbours. It seems that people with sensitive hearing, coupled with a busy-body nature, can become quite obsessive about every bit of outside noise. Obsessed to the point of attempting to manage the lives and parenting skills of other people, for example. Maybe motherhood will help to desensitise the op to the noise of a happy family home, until then, she should most definitely find a home beside neighbours who meet her requirements.

Oh my goodness - where to even start.

Suki,
I am so struck by how enormously payronising you are towards your neighbours. You assume they don't know ' the value' of 'sleep routine' and 'discipline' - and then crikey your leaflets (!) ... You sound hugely confident in yourself. While that can be a great quality, it's also coming across as tremendously naive, tbh, as several other posters have said.

Children are noisy. And yours a ost certainy will be too. And while some people may agree with you that eg locking a child in a room with a staur gate to cry all night 'until they learn to sleep at night", I can say right now that not every culture and not evey family does that. And those who don't choose that method have excellent evidence on their side too.

This thread could easily turn into a CIO versus gentle parenting thread, and that would just be a distraction from the point at hand which is - you need to consider you may be extremely patronising here, and that moving away would be a course of action to consider. Not least because it would be poetic justice if they shoved leaflets under your door once your baby enters the picture. Truly they can be amazingly loud.

Actually, MrsC, I was supportive of the OP - until I read her later comments. I still maintain that parents owe consideration to others, and that they should have more consideration for her need to sleep, and have said as much. If there have been comments personally attacking her, rather than pointing out that a childless person telling others how to parent is somewhat silly, then I absolutely agree that that's unacceptable. But I've not seen them (though in fairness in a fast-moving and lengthy thread, that isn't to say they aren't there). If your posts are meant to be defending the OP, and not Hyacinth Bucketesque pronouncements, then perhaps you should consider your words a little more carefully? If so many are misunderstanding the intent, then it's unlikely you're conveying it well.

I'm amused, given you've repeatedly been told how you come across, that you loftily opine on my "credibility" - I would have thought the views on your being qualified to do any such thing are pretty clear by now. You keep seeking to instruct and judge other posters on their parenting, tone-police their posts here, and now deem yourself able to single-handedly determine who has "credibility". It's not doing what you presumably intend - you just look remarkably silly.

If you'd like people to be more courteous on Mumsnet, then I very much agree. But you undermine that perspective when you post with such tone-deaf, arrogant rudeness yourself. It's a pity you seem so wholly blind to the way your posts come across, really, but the pity is your own, so I suppose the choice must also remain yours.

OP, FWIW I'm genuinely surprise at the pasting you are getting on here. I think the situation you are dealing with sounds awful, I would hate it too, and in have a child!!!

OP have you tried the heavy duty earplugs mentioned on here yet?
That would solve the noise problem but I realise that they wouldn't help with your irritation towards your neighbours, which may be a bigger issue

Kinkytoes and kelly, thanks for your support, it's good to know others would find this behaviour unacceptable as well. Kinkytoes, I agree completely that a little consideration for neighbours goes a long way. It's very thoughtful to let them know when you're sleep-training, and having this knowledge I'm sure they will be extra understanding.

Mamadoc... your post contains many inaccuracies. I have never referred to this family as 'poor illiterate immigrants' (your words). I have pointed out there is a language barrier, which makes direct communication difficult, and that they may be less aware of local services and at greater risk of isolation because of this. All relevant to the topic.

Since this is a thread on a pregnancy forum, on a parenting website, I think everyone (even mums-to-be) has a right to share, discuss and debate parenting strategies, and express opinions, without being called 'smug' or being ridiculed.
It is as much about ethical issues as specific parenting strategies.
And even if a mum-to-be shares something she has read in a book, or heard from a friend, she is still entitled to raise it and find out what others think/if others have tried it.

I stand by my belief that parents living in flats need to be respectful of neighbours and minimise the noise their children make at night. To most people this is common sense!
Yet it appears some lose sight of the bigger picture when they have a child, forgetting that courtesy, respect, consideration and good manners are still necessary when you live in close proximity to others.
It's eye-opening just how many people think it's ok to let toddlers make as much noise as they want all night, run around banging on partition walls etc! They expect endless patience and understanding from neighbours 'for a few years' yet couldn't care less that their child is repeatedly waking these people night after night!

Amantes... there is a cut-off point to ignoring excessive relentless noise from neighbours, child or no child. While it's easier for parent to label neighbour as having 'sensitive hearing coupled with busybody nature' this is shelving responsibility and failing to attend to the problem at hand. Why not blame the neighbour for being unable to sleep through your child's excessive noise? What a great solution! That way you don't have to bother to take any action at all!
When your child's noise is loud enough to wake people in next flat (despite earplugs) your neighbour is hardly 'oversensitive'! As for 24-hour screaming, crying and hitting walls... is that your idea of a 'happy family home'? ROFL

Luxurytrifle, would you let your child hammer on partition walls at night and run around screaming until 3am? Is this an example of 'gentle-parenting'?! You seem to think it's cruel to keep a child in his bedroom at night by using a stairgate. The obvious answer, if parents feel he should be allowed run of the house all night, would be to stay up with him and keep him entertained. I'm sure plenty of responsible parents do stay up at night with toddlers and keep them from waking neighbours.

Sleepone I never said i had some perfect method, someone else sarcastically said that. I said some of the things I do. Different methods work for every child. I haven't name called out been particularly rude in any comment despite having quite a lot aimed at me. Lazy and inconsiderate are the only two remotely provocative words I used. In my view knowing your child has an issue, that will be impacting them as well, and simply proclaiming it's their age is lazy. I don't actually think I'm a parenting guru or anything else that's been mentioned. I think I've done a good job establishing a routine for my son and described what had helped. If that is arrogance fine, I'm hardly the only person in the world who doesn't agree bad behaviour can't be overcome.

Sukie, the point is that you cannot control a toddler.

If people have found that they could control their toddler that is largely due to being lucky with the toddler's nature. One of my three DC was like this.

If you put a stairgate on a room the toddler is likely to scream and cry all the louder. Distraction does not always work, it doesn't work at all if they are tired.

In your situation I would move to a detatched place, you need your sleep now but mostly because when your own child is noisy you will be agonising over upsetting the neighbours.

the point is that you cannot control a toddler

Honestly? Hahahahahahaha

Google is your friend. There are many, many articles on how to control toddler tantrums, written especially for struggling parents. The irony is, the target audience won't actually be reading the articles, or seeking help, and instead are happy to allow their child to run wild.

It's like me giving advice on how to effectively train a large and rambunctious dog despite having never owned a dog in my life.

Though to be fair, I imagine there are considerable similarities between a German Shepherd puppy and a 2 year old.

I don't think there's that many people on here who are saying it's acceptible as such, just that you may be underestimating how difficult it is to control a toddler who's having sleep issues and has taken to tantruming through exhaustion in the middle of the night.

Personally it's something that would really bother me and keep me awake too. I'd be frustrated but would also sort of have to accept that if I wanted to continue living there, there wasn't much I could do about it.

The reality of it is that if you don't know them well you really don't know what they're trying in order to stop it. They might have tried all the sleep techniques you've read about and the toddler is still having issues. He may have SEN or something else causing it. Of course not addressing the issue is a possibility too but given that the situation is impacting their lives and sleep too it's unlikely they're just letting it happen without trying to take measures to stop it.

People are responding to your attitude about the situation, not the situation itself. Try to imagine how hard it must be to have experienced these issues first hand and then have someone come along making many many suggestions you've already tried and that haven't worked. It's like when you're having morning sickness and the 826th person says 'oh have you tried ginger biscuits!' Bound to get folks backs up isn't it? You keep saying 'people think it's acceptable'. People aren't saying that (well some might be, Ive not analysed every response...) but the majority are saying 'it happens and can continue to happen despite your best efforts'. Which is true.

Now then, what a lot of unpleasant self congratulatory smug "just you wait" posts on here.

I don't know what you can do about your neighbours child, op, very little it seems. Just wanted to say I sympathise. Because it really can't be nice to be kept awake until 3am by a noisy toddler every night for 6 months. I can assure you that is not normal toddler behaviour and if you ever find yourself in the position of having a toddler who has such terrible, disrupted sleep for such a long period then I would urge you to take him to the GP.

Exactly. It's not nice for the neighbour; it's really not nice at all. I'd hate to live through that noise.

But you seem, OP, to imagine that the parents are just sitting there with headphones on ignoring their toddler as it rampages through the house in the middle of the night.

The chances that they are doing this are vanishingly small. The reality will be that they are undoubtedly beyond exhausted with no sleep themselves, and at their wits end how to cope with this behaviour. Perhaps there are SEN involved. None of us know.

I would consider eating a hat if your neighbours believed this was perfectly acceptable behaviour. But they probably don't know what to do. And until you have been that sleep deprived, that seriously, manically sleep deprived, you will never understand how hard it is to take a step back and try to find a way to cope with a situation.

I'm a tinie bit scared to enter this debate but having lived next to a noisy bairn for months now I have to be on op's side.

Said bairn was a cryer when born. Which in itself was absolutely fine. New born baby etc. That's part of the deal with babies. And family tried to apologise for crying (I told them not to be silly, baby after all)

Issues came as baby got older/more active Would wake at 5.30, parents tried to shush him back to sleep etc. Eventually they just brought him through to their room and as he got more active let him tootle around room whilst they stayed in bed

Now the floors are not carpeted. Can hear toys getting rammed over the floor into walls, toys rattled off radiators that echo'd down through our bedroom. Toys picked up and dropped etc.

None of which in itself are particularly annoying (apart from radiator one but that's just me being weird. Radiator is not a toy!). However every morning at 6? With no intervention from parents? It was inconsiderate. They could have moved through to living room! Or his blooming play room!!

They have moved though so not an issue anymore. I should also say I work shifts and quite often up at those times (which is why I know the parents weren't up. No other noises!) But on my days off I would have liked a long lie!!

I'll probably have a child from hell now I've came on this thread. Oh well toddles off to research techniques on toddler tantrum warfare

Just to add it's not only toddlers that need to learn to be considerate.
Through the wall neighbours have their TV on so bloody loud I can hear dialogue perfectly! But that's another story.

When your child's noise is loud enough to wake people in next flat (despite earplugs) your neighbour is hardly 'oversensitive'! As for 24-hour screaming, crying and hitting walls... is that your idea of a 'happy family home'? ROFL

'ROFL' indeed! Because I know, with absolute certainty, that no child can sustain "24-hour screaming, crying and hitting walls". So, yes, you clearly are oversensitive. Or lying

Now then, what a lot of unpleasant self congratulatory smug "just you wait" posts on here.

Yep, that sums up this thread nicely.

But surely if there were SEN issues, or the parents were trying hard to deal with the problem, the very least they could do is inform the OP of this? It's just common courtesy!

Sleeponeday... In response to a post from MrsCs you said:
'if you'd like people to be more courteous on mumsnet, then I very much agree'.
Do you really agree? If so, you could start by being courteous yourself.
In that post alone you unfairly accused her of being 'arrogant' 'tone-deaf' 'wholly blind' 'looking 'remarkably silly' 'making Hyacinth Bucketesque pronouncements' 'tone-policing'... and in other posts you made equally nasty comments such as 'I dismissed all she had to say', accused her of 'smug pomposity' and criticised how you felt she came across, when all she had done was share helpful advice and strategies that had worked for her.
Further examples of your rudeness include telling me 'your posts appear utterly ridiculous' repeatedly telling me I appear 'silly' since I am a 'childless person' and writing a sarcastic imitation of one of my posts followed by the comment 'that's how you sound. Just so you know.'

Sleeponeday, how do you think YOU come across to others on here?
Perhaps you could try using language that is less emotive and judgemental, and refrain from such personal attacks against people. Though disguised with a lot of fancy language, your behaviour is at times bullying and insulting.
You shared your experiences of what worked for your child without anyone mocking you... I suggest you be courteous enough to let others do the same.

Comeagainforbigfudge... I empathise, that must be very annoying, especially as you work shifts. The sound of toys being loudly scraped across radiators is something that bothers me too- I guess to a toddler it's a bit like playing with a giant xylophone but the sound is very penetrating and echoes, especially on a partition wall.

Have you tried speaking to the parents? It's possible they don't realise how much the sound carries and could take him into a different room when it's so early.

I think a lot of flats and terraces have very poor soundproofing. The building I'm in was previously one big house, so the partition walls have no more insulation than an ordinary inner-wall. You can hear everything... people coughing, taps being turned on, floorboards creaking.
What puzzles me is why some parents don't make more effort when they know the sound-proofing is poor. In your case it sounds like some rugs or mats in parents' bedroom might help, and toys that are soft and quiet rather than things that rattle or make noise when dropped. Or even better, taking him into a different room if they know you're trying to sleep.

I think unless you've lived in this type of flat nextdoor to a toddler, people don't always realise how much 'everyday' sounds travel.

I used to live under a Spanish couple with a toddler, and hard floors. He was up past 11 each night, and was often running, and riding something with wheels. It is very loud, and very irritating. So I do sympathise.

But as you're about to have your own potential source of unbelievable, uncontrollable noise, I would keep quiet, just in case they turn out to be just as noisy, despite your good intentions. Pot, kettle, and all that...

In your case it sounds like some rugs or mats in parents' bedroom might help, and toys that are soft and quiet rather than things that rattle or make noise when dropped. Or even better, taking him into a different room if they know you're trying to sleep.

Op, as an adult, have you ever lived with other people? A family? Other adults? Have you also sought extensive control over the behaviour of those people to suit you, your wishes, your 'needs'? Is it in your nature, to expect those around you, to place your wishes at the forefront of their consideration, at all times? I would hope (but doubt) the answer is no. Because it is precious and presumptuous, to always place your wishes above the needs of others in your own home, so to place the same incredible expectations and needy control upon your neighbours, is completely unacceptable.

Kinkytoes - why should the parents inform the OP if their child has SN? It's nobody else's business ffs! Their priority would be their child and their child's right to privacy! They might not yet be diagnosed anyhow.

I'm not sure the OP would be satisfied with that explanation anyway.

Its a shame that the common restrictive covenant in flats concerning bare floorboards doesn't extend to neighbouring properties in some cases op .

Me, I am often woken in the early hours by my neighbours clomping around in their (bare floorboarded) bedroom with shoes on and opening and shutting the wardrobe doors which are built in against the adjoining wall.

Your neighbours know that the noise disturbs you, perhaps you could remind them that it is still a problem?