Noisy toddler next door

[Sukie272]

I live in a small flat and my next-door neighbours have a toddler who is about 2. This child seems to stay up all night as well as most of the day- he screams, cries, yells, bangs toys on the walls and runs around their flat constantly, until around 3am.
The walls are very thin, so he wakes me up repeatedly. After 6 months of being woken 4-5 times a night (the sound of him running on hardwood floors sounds like someone is hamnering nails into the floor) I complained to landlord. He agreed this level of noise at night is unacceptable and spoke to the family. For a few weeks the noise calmed down and they seemed to make an effort to keep him away from the partition wall at night, but now the noise is unbearable again.
I've tried politely talking to the parents (who are Eastern European and don't speak much English), I've also put leaflets under their door about SureStart and other sources of help. At times I bang on the wall in desperation. I just want some peace and quiet!
Is it normal for a 2-year-old to cry for several hours every day, and to run around screaming for hours at a time, several times a night? I'm worried he may be being abused/neglected... should I contact Social Services? The parents rarely take him out of the flat, so maybe he is just bored?
I'm in first trimester of pregnancy and currently off work sick, so I can't escape the noise even in the daytime. I feel so angry that these people let their child cause such a disturbance! Earplugs make little difference, and I can hear him in every room in my flat, even though my bedroom is not next to the partition wall.
What can I do about this? Does anyone have a similar experience?

People suggesting that they can't stop their 2 or 3 yr old kids banging on party walls at 3 am... I really hope you never live next door to me. That you can always, always stop unless you live in a studio flat or something. It's about teaching your kids basic respect for other people, and actually, it's about having some such basic respect yourself. Your kids should not be keeping people up at night by direct assaults on their walls.

I lived in a flat with DS the first 3 years of his life, and he has an ASD. It doesn't give you carte blanche to ignore the fact that other people exist and need sleep.

Having said that, anyone suggesting fingerpainting with a toddler at 2 am, when that toddler won't even contemplate sleep until 11 pm and wakes without fail at 5 am, with night wakings in between... you have no clue. None. And the sleep clinic describes our sleep hygiene, as it's known in the biz, as "exemplary". Night waking can be anxiety/separation related and the evidence base you so confidently alllude to, OP, notes it is an intransigent problem that defeats them all too often.

Joyful... I have not labelled anyone as 'inadequate' or 'not a good parent'. Perhaps it is your own insecurities or defensiveness that caused you to jump to this conclusion? You seem to feel the need to dismiss any advice from other parents of toddlers, often sarcastically. I wonder why? Even if certain methods didn't work for you, others may have success with them.

I am not trying to 'tell people how to parent' but I do think it's important for people to feel they can share parenting advice, whether it's something that works for them or something that works for a friend.
Gathering information, hearing about different experiences and getting different perspectives on parenting is useful for mums-to-be as well as those who already have children.

Re the finger-painting, I don't think my friends gets the paints out at 3am I assume it's part of their quiet-play routine leading up to bedtime.

Assuming you're referring to yourself when you mention 'giving parenting advice', I would disagree that you're in any way qualified to do this until you're a parent. You can be as textbook qualified as you like but anyone who dished out helpful advice to me before they'd actually gone through having children would very much get a smile and a nod. :)

And that's from someone who's implimented a sleep routine from early on and is lucky enough to have a good sleeper. I know for a damn fact it's less to do with my nighttime routine and far more to do with my daughters personality laziness

I thought all the stuff that the OP is going on about before I had my DS. In fact I have still persevered with all that craft, outdoor play, quiet play before bed, routine bollocks.

Trouble was, DS hadn't read the same parenting books as me

Was probably my fault, I should have read them aloud whilst he was in the womb.

The sharing of 'advice' of the very few posters that agree with you is laughable. Of course it's been tried and tested. Why do you keep ignoring that. Do you honestly think millions of woman sit at home staring blankly at the wall slack jawed wondering how on earth to get their child to bed?

The lovely mrsc (you) had some lovely words to explain why some children are bad sleepers - which you agree with. Which is laughable because you have no clue about children that are bad sleepers.

I'm don't feel inadequate or jealous (as you put it) I'm immensely proud of my beautiful and intelligent dd1 (20 years old) and I dont feel inadequate over my dd2. (20 months) I never feel any negative feelings I regard to my children because I adore them so much. Sleepless nights don't last forever.

This site is a haven for new mum- a god send. But a mum to be to come on spouting bollox from so called experts and hasn't even had a child yet is really immature and ...weird.

Good luck love you going to need it. Maybe you should put MN down and go and get some sleep. Your going to awake later

I am not trying to 'tell people how to parent' but I do think it's important for people to feel they can share parenting advice, whether it's something that works for them or something that works for a friend.

Parenting advice is great when you ask for it. When you don't, it's usually all about the insecurities of the other parent, tbh - it's not helpful or "sharing" to implicitly criticise what someone else does. It's self-congratulatory. I sometimes side-eye other parents, of course I do. And I remain silent, because they are almost certainly doing it to me over other areas of parenting (and sometimes the same, I'm sure). And when the person proffering the advice is not a parent... well, that's the parenting version of mansplaining.

I assume it's part of their quiet-play routine leading up to bedtime.

I find craft a bit stimulating as a pre-bedtime activity, actually. I want my child's brain to wind down, not gear up, and he gets incredibly engrossed in his activities. Perhaps my child is just a little more creative than your friend's?

That's how you sound. Just so you know. The real reason I wouldn't try craft at that time is because frustration tantrums would result, from a tired little person making sleepy errors. But bath, story, gentle song is normal. Taking your child out to run around outdoors at least twice a day is, too. This stuff is not rocket science, and to imagine parents with kids who don't sleep don't try that is, honestly, darkly hilarious. You seem to think motherhood is easy, and I rather fear for your crash landing when you discover to the contrary.

In a year or so, this may well be you: "The windows are dark in the town, child / The whales are huddled down in the deep / I'll read one very last book if you swear / You'll go the fuck to sleep." There's a reason it's a best-seller and Samuel L Jackson agreed to narrate it.

Yes I walked my toddler for nearly two miles today. I still had to use a really really quiet calm voice for everything before bed or a slight hint of excitement would have set him off boing-ing around the room. He actually says "boing" whilst jumping. It is his most used word. This is your reality.

sleep that vid is brilliant. It really captures the essence of toddler sleep!

weeblueberry, I was not referring to myself when I mentioned 'giving parenting advice' but to the posters who already have children and whose advice keeps getting shouted down. It appears many parents find it unacceptable to let a child run around screaming all night every night and banging on partition wall.

Joyful... why do you think I am MrsCs? LOL! Are you really so threatened by her advice that you try to invalidate it by saying she is not a real poster?? The advice she offered clearly worked for her, and I feel she recieved an unnecessarily harsh, sarcastic response from posters such as yourself. Why is it so funny that active outdoor play might help improve a toddler's sleep? Perhaps it didn't help your child, but it may help others.
And while you may dismiss this as 'bollox from so-called experts' there is a lot of research and evidence supporting these theories... it seems rather judgemental to dismiss them all as 'bollox' just because you tried them and didn't find them helpful.

The 'quiet-play' activities I referred to were not from a textbook, they are activities my friend uses to engage/distract/calm her toddler in the night or as part of his bedtime routine. To me they all sound very sensible activities (much better than letting toddler run around screaming and hitting walls) but I guess I will have to reserve judgement until I can test them out on my own child

@sukie272 - do you have children???

I am a mother to a teenager and a toddler and #3 on the way. I am sorry but reading this post sounds to me like your sticking your noise were it does not belong and I agree with others, this will come back to bite you in the bottom.

It is not your business if the child has special needs or even is going through the terrible two's which this clearly sounds like to me...what and who makes your an expert on parenting? why because your pregnant and its not what you would do with your child? well its not your child and if it was quiet for a time and started back up again, I am assuming these ideas did not work for their child/family. Nobody is an expert..each child is different..

In regards to a phase - yes it is a phase....it will end when the child is 3...maybe..

this does not sound like abuse or neglect to me, do you hear them yelling or hitting the child? Do you see them with marks on them? No or would would have posted this and would have just called child services.

Here is an idea - move your bed to another area so you don't hear the noise or like others have said....move.

Remember everyone parents differently and you will too when your baby is born but I think your statements are harsh and unrealistic to someone living beside a toddler in a home with thin walls that has no children currently.

Joyfull your need to resort to rudeness gives it all away lol. There has been quite a lot of sympathy from a number of posters for OP. The fact you have posted so many times supporting yourself hasn't really changed that. My toddler has not been an immediate or good sleeper, so again, yes I do know about overcoming problems. Belittle OP as much as you like, suggest I don't have friends because I give advice unfortunately as there is no truth in your barbs, I doubt anyone cares :)

OP I suspect it's less that the OP is "threatened by her advice" and more that she chose to post this:

Sukie some people are happy to parent in a lazy and inconsiderate manner. I wouldn't take their comments to heart. Quite often over indulged children with no routine pay their parents back by being appalling teenagers.

That was the point at which I dismissed all she had to say, because smug pomposity never endears posters to me, or leads me to believe they have much IRL sorted.

And as I've said, I managed a toddler on the autistic spectrum in a flat without ever allowing the sort of behaviour your neighbours do. It's not acceptable, and I would not allow it. I worked really hard with him on empathy and theory of mind thinking and self-regulation, and I was lucky enough that it paid off - it doesn't, always. I accept that no child should be allowed to hammer on party walls - ever, let alone at 3 am.

That's light years from a childless person lecturing a bunch of parents on how to do it right - as I said, you're effectively mansplaining parenting, and it's making your posts appear utterly ridiculous. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

Joyfull your need to resort to rudeness gives it all away lol.

Irony is so delicious, don't you think.

oh and if someone put leaflets under my door instead of speaking to me in person I would take offense to that for sure. Perhaps she doesn't want your help or opinion when you have no children and see like a know it all with the leaflets...sorry ..Just saying...

The comments on this thread are weird. Op I think you are entirely reasonable in your expectations. Most 2yo's don't get up and run around the house at night. They may not sleep through but mine (for example) creeps into my bed if she wakes, very quietly.

That amount of noise is not normal and I would be annoyed as well.

In all honesty it sounds like they are sleep training and the toddler isn't taking to it very well.

Sleepone I made that comment after noting extensive bullying of OP in response to her very normal wish to enjoy her home. I note, hypocritically, you in no way challenged that, but it was not okay for someone to respond?

She has been laughed at and told she's 'in for it' with her child. Plain nastiness toward a pregnant woman who is desperate for a nights sleep. Also she has been trying to resolve the matter with her neighbours as best she can.

Given you were happy to ignore the harsh comments from another poster you can't really object to my response with any kind of credibility.

This has made me laugh.
What coola said.
I feel for your isolated neighbours who must be exhausted and doesn't sound like they are getting out much either.
Massaging a noisy 2 or 3 year old! As for the idea of trying to explain to a 2 year old that someone is sleeping behind a wall. It wouldn't stop any I've met, especially in the middle of the night, even if they could see the people sleeping in front of them. That empathy/control just comes with age, sorry. Eg If my 4 year old stubbed her toe in the night she would hold her mouth/cry silently if possible, if she could if she knew someone was asleep. When she was 2 - no chance. She is the same person. However the parents know there are people sleeping on the other side of wall.

I am lucky and have had (in the main) good sleepers and supportive help/people to give me a break. Yes your neighbours don't sound very considerate of you, yes it is hard for you working when you are tired.

What about going round and making a specific suggestion to the mother that the child is not in the kitchen/living room areas from 11pm to 6am and explaining that the noise is making it difficult for you?
I don't think giving her any more leaflets or info on soft play centers/support/ parenting advice is appropriate or going to work.

Ps I'm laughing at controlling a toddler (perhaps the ideas I had when I just had 1 lovely 1 yr old and thought I had it all figured out :-) )not at op. Someone said earlier, trench humour.

Edmondswife... of course I am no expert on parenting, nor do I pretend to be. The only firsthand experience I have with toddlers is helping close friends. Somehow (either through luck or perseverence) all my friends have achieved fairly successful sleep-routines with their toddlers, so until I came on this forum I assumed this was the norm!

However, I feel that many PARENTS trying to share advice here are swiftly shot down or ridiculed by posters who disagree with them. Anyone (parent or not) is entitled to defend or highlight advice they feel has been unjustly dismissed.

You do not need to have children in order to have an opinion about parenting styles! Or to have an opinion about what is 'acceptable' noise from next-door neighbours in a flat. Equally I don't think all parents suddenly become experts when they have a toddler.

Unfortunately, the situation with my neighbours HAS become my problem, as it's severely impacting my life. I am being woken up several times a night, every night, by their child running, screeching and banging the partition wall for hours at a time. My bed is in the furthest room from the partition wall but the noise is so loud it still wakes me (even with earplugs). I am currently off work with hypermesis gravidarum so I cannot escape the noise in daytime either. I have talked to the parents, and landlord has told them this level of noise is unacceptable, but they are either unable or unwilling to do anything.

They rarely take the child out of the flat, and he seems to spend most of day and night running from wall to wall screaming and banging. On the rare occasions I see him in the corridor, he looks unkempt but not bruised or distressed. Giving them SureStart leaflets (following several unsuccessful attempts at talking to parents) was out of concern for his welfare, their wellbeing, and a vague hope they might seek help with the sleep problems! With hindsight I realise the leaflets were not a great idea.

I don't feel it's realistic or practical to stay another year in this environment in the hope he will grow out of it when he's 3! It's no place to cope with a newborn baby.
Therefore I am planning to move soon, but this doesn't solve the problem for the poor tenants who move in after me.
Nor does it answer the ethical questions raised.
Surely it is not impossible to be a parent AND a considerate neighbour?

I did not mean to come across as 'lecturing a bunch of parents on how to do it right', but I do challenge the assertion that neighbours should just put up with this behaviour 'since he's a toddler', and I don't believe parents are powerless to do anything about this level of noise at night.

Perhaps they are bad parents

Perhaps their child has SEN

Perhaps they just don't care about good neighbourly behaviour

It really doesn't matter. Bottom line it is not your business how they raise their child (unless you seriously do suspect abuse in which case you know what to do)

You can be angry, pissed off, I'm sure many people would be (I live in a terraced house I do get it) but I say again you can't make them parent the way you want them to.

You have a right to complain about the noise through the appropriate channels ie landlord, environmental health. You can move away, move your bedroom, soundproof.

What people are objecting to is the smug way you are coming across. You do seem to believe that you know better than this child's parents (his poor immigrant, illiterate parents) how to get him to sleep on the basis of a chat with some friends who have kids. Your advice is clearly unwelcome so you need to confine yourself to matters that are your business is the noise nuisance and not parenting advice.

People are trying to point out to you that a thing you learn as a parent is that all children are different, there is no one 'right' way and acting as though there is will make you unpopular.