DH would abort but I wouldn't........help!

[Bloo]

My DH really took me by surprise - he was asking at what stage we take all the tests for DS etc etc. I said that we should only have them if we would potentially act on the results as they come with some risk. to cut a long story short, DH said he would want to abort if the baby had DS. I am mortified. Has anyone else been in this situation>

trifle - not get married - I know of two young couples who have gotten married recently and living in their own flats, working, paying taxes, holidaying, and do all the things we think are what people should do... they just happen to have down syndrome.... You really seem to pick extreme examples....I happen to know of a young man - in France who has just graduated from university with a masters degree - more than I have......

To use your phrase - I do have 'one like that' I also have a child who does not have special needs so I think you need to stop and think before you make such sweeping ignorant statements and you know - My nt daughter is more demanding than dd1 who has down syndrome. Except for being toilet trained my 3yo with down syndrome can do everything any average 3yo can do and she is not alone in not being toilet trained..... I do not envy another parent - they don't have the wonderful children I have - and have not met the wonderful people I have since my daughter was born.

We have taken dd1 all over the place - to the beach, travelled around the world, to all sorts of things - nothing stopping her.

Trifle - your comments just get worse and worse - Long term effects - you are posting comments that people who deal with the harsh reality as you put it every bloody day.....

The hardest thing I have had to face with my daughter was open heart surgery at 8 weeks old - very stressful - But guess what there were far more parents of children without special needs in that hospital than had sn.

Daily the hardest thing we face is ignorant, ill or uninformed prejudices people who think it is their right to comment on my child and her special needs and how terrible that must be for us.

As for your pity - shove it - don't need it, don't want it

Prefer to remain morally irresponsible/wrong or whatever else you happen to think of me

Bloo - I agree with the other posters who said that it is probably fear that is motivating your husband - I guess dh and I were lucky we knew families who had children with down syndrome or other special needs and so had some idea of the reality of raising a child with sn. So that probably helped in making our decision. We as humans generally like to also imagine the worse case scenario.

As a child I learnt life had no guarantees. My fit healthy athletic uncle had an accident and was in a coma and then emerged with brain damage. He is somewhat physically and intellectually impaired BUT he has his own house ( owns it!) has a fab life on an island out from Brisbane and is not a drain on anyone.

As others have said - keep talking. Also I think I said that it is easy to say what you will and will not do when not faced with the decision... then when the decision is there to be made it often for people is not so black and white.

Hope aside from the other posts re sn you have had some help.

Jimjams your post of 9:51:36 is particularly fab.

Trifle, as someone who currently has the privilege of regularly spending time with an 8mo with DS and related digestive problems (he was very ill indeed just after he was born and had surgery twice) and his mum (my friend), supporting her through the highs AND the lows, and having cried buckets at his absolutely amazing baptism just at Easter, your posts really do make me rather to say the least. Yes, it is not always easy for the family, but the idea of pitying them (ffs) is completely ludicrous.

There are plenty of people in this world who I think have given up the right to life but none of them have sn. Isn't it strange how our society panders to paedophiles, murderers, rapists etc because it is their 'human right' to live, yet considers it reasonable that an innocent child may not have the same rights? I know who I would rather spend my taxes on Trifle, since that seems to be your criteria for judging peoples' worth.

And as for seeing more 'able' children and wishing my son were more like them, of course I would love it if he could speak, not be in nappies at the age of almost-six, ride a bike etc, I would love those things for his sake, not because I am jealous of someone else's child! Often I see the appalling behaviour of some nt children and feel glad that my son is not like them. I won't be the one lying awake at night worrying that my child is mugging old ladies or taking drugs, both of which activities are a drain on taxpayers.

My son is gorgeous, funny and loveable. I don't think anyone who has met him could say he isn't worth the 'trouble'. He is going on a school trip for two nights soon. I have agonised over letting him go because far from cheering at the thought of being 'free' I know I will be willing the time away until he comes back.

Trifle , I consider my son to be my most precious of possessions. I love him, adore him and absolutely cherish him.

My heart fills with so much love every time he can come to me with a goal he has achieved. It might be that he has kept his cool at school for the day; that he has written more than a sentence; that he says "please". He is learning all the time and for him to live in a world that at times can be so confusing for him, I applaud him.

You talk about friends of friends with disabled children. Has it never occurred to you that they loved their children to pieces, no matter what?

I have been to hell and back for my son but I would have it no other way. Life is not a bowl of cherries but do you know what, I would have it no other way. The huge feeling in your heart you get with the love for your child makes it all worthwhile.

I have never ever regretted having my son or to have wished him not to be born. What I DO wish for is that there not so many ignorant and ill informed people in the world.

And incidentally, because of circumstances, I have worked ALL my life. I am not a drain on taxpayer’s money and neither is my son, I pay my way and his and yes, we have already made provision for his future for when my husband and I are not here. I think you would be surprised as to just how many parents DO consider the future for their disabled children.

Bloo - I remember having the same conversation with my husband! It was because he was frightened, frightened for me; would I cope, could I cope? It's amazing but a mother's love (and a father's come to that) knows no bounds when the baby is born. And to be very honest, the doctors alarmed us throughout the pregnancy that there was something wrong, amniotic bands around the placenta; baby not growning etc etc I had scan after scan. So unfortuntely, in some cases, you can never tell - time will tell in some cases like ours (autism). He looks just like any other child, his brain is just wired differently and a scan would not have picked that up or any other test at the moment!

I wish you good luck with your husband and hope that you manage to find a comfortable ground for you both.

Trifle - my DS2(ASD) has enriched my life. I adore him, worry for him, support and encourage him, and learn from him. And can say the exactly the same about my DS1 (NT). I think the fact that you can ask whether parents can be asking "if they want one like that", demonstrates amazing ignorance. I don't know your own family history, but if a child of yours comes 2nd in the class in a test, do you spend time wishing that you were, in fact, mother to the child who came top? Or do you concentrate on just loving and supporting your child for who they are and what they achieve in their life?

trifle you're such a complete and utter bitch, I am lost for words.

Surprisingly enough I do not hanker after other people's children (I guess you must do then when you see other people's children who are more able than yours?). My dd with DS is a wonderful child who will grow up into a wonderful woman. I am glad to have her in my life. She is sweet, funny, friendly, tries hard at everything she does and is an absolute enrichment to our family. She is one of three and is most definitely not the most demanding or difficult child (my 2.5 year old ds lays claim to that position!). If I want to go shopping at the weekend dd2 is the one I take with me because it's nice to do things with her.
Yes sometimes it's bloody hard - when you get stupid, viscious comments like yours for instance. And of course it's difficult to see your child struggle - but then again, I worry just as much about my other children - my high-achieving but extremely scatty dd1 for instance, or my really quite unmanageable toddler ds.
My dd with DS has been an ansolute enrichment to our family, and to others who know her. Her primary school have told me repeatedly how pleased they are to have her, and how she has had a noticable positive effect on the whole school. Her classmates are kinder to each other than previous years of reception children, because of dd's presence.

Woah, please, why are lots of people having a go? Surely, Trifle has just been asking the most logical of questions, uncomfortable, yes, but not offensive because in no way, that I can see, where they ever judgemental. Simply by taking the prenatal tests, these are the very dilemmas you may encounter.

as for the getting married bit

dh and i accept that ds2 will never get married, will never have children
and be extremely lucky to survive until adulthood

that is a fact
that is the reality we live in
we have lived the reality of 9 yrs of not knowing whether our ds2 will be alive from one day to the next

is that seeing through rose tinted glasses
no i dont think so
yes that has been a nightmare for us
a real living one

but by god we count every day as precious
as dont need any patronising shite from the likes of you trifle

Kiss - I think Trifle could have worded things differently or added a human element to her posts bearing in mind that the majority of people posting here have children with SN. It has come across very badly in their direction and without any acknowledgement of any hurt or upset that has been caused. As previously stated - this thread was never a 'should I proceed with my pregnancy'.

you know, if you ignore trifle, with all the sn parents.... this has become a beautiful, life affirming thread.

Not yet - he's been away for work and got back late last night - we'll chat more over the weekend.

Kiss, so you really think that phrases like "sweep under the carpet" "one like that" and "bloody nightmare" are non-judgemental contributions to bloo's situation, or indeed to any discussion about the role of SN individuals in society?
I agree with Fio - if you cannot see the offensiveness of Trifle's views then you should ask yourself why that is.

Bloo sweetie, the decision is yours entirely and something you have to discuss with your dh.

I was told when i was 7mths pg with ds3 that there was a 1 in 5 chance that he would be SN too.
Tbh the geneticist words were
if i knew you were pg I would of told you to have an abortion

so I spent the last 2 mths worried sick.

If people decide to abort that is their choice, and i hold no ill will towards them

but it is when a child with SN is here and the only thing we can do is to love and nurture them
and tend to their needs

not put up with patronising and naive attitudes

we may as parents of sn look after our children 24/7

but our children teach us far more
one of the things is that
unconditional love is such an important part of life.
xxx

Bloo, my friend has a baby with DS. She had no idea during pregnancy (she didn't have an amnio as she has had many miscarriages). Her ds is now 5 months old and has had problem after problem, including 2 operations. She looks awful, has lost loads of weight and is incredibly stressed out. How any of us would be if our children were in and out of hospital. On top of this she was desperately worried about whether her husband would cope when her ds was first born.
However I saw her dh out with their ds in a cafe the other day. He didn't know I had seen him and I have never seen such a picture of fatherly love in all my life. He's a big bloke and he cradled this gorgeous little boy in his arms and cooed and stroked and talked to him the whole time. I would have offered to hold him to let him drink his coffee but I just didn't want to interrupt.
Blokes can surprise themselves and us with their capacity to love.

kiss trifle's qurstions aren't even logical. The conditions most likely to be picked up by antenatal tsesting are either relatively high functioning / normal functioning (DS, Turner's, other sex chromosome anomalies- yes DS is a spectrum but individuals with DS have a level of functioning that will allow them to live a fulfilled life), or so incredibly disabling that the child is very unlikely to live more than a few months (trisomy 13, trisomy 18- a ver small number of children live longer a minute number make it into their teens/adulthood) so the financial cost to society is minute.

Trifle's posts are incredibly oiffensive as she seems to think that disabled children have less right to life and bring less happiness to their families than nt children. Having both I can say that's not true.

And yes Fio I wondered the same thing about why the sibling hasn't helped out to let the parents have a night out (if they wanted to, I know plenty of people that age that don't want to go out).

Have just seen this thread

[anger]

I'm not going to say too much as everyone else has already said it and much better than I would

But what a very ignornant, rude, offensive person

I am shocked and have never read such horrible veiws in the years I have been on Mumsnet

Tifle...you should be ashamed of your self, but some how I don't think you ever will be

Wow I have to say that I am absolutely incredulous at trifle’s remarks. But tbh, her (I’m assuming it’s a her) last post doesn’t seem so much ignorant to me as very resentful and bitter. “no one with a ds child is going to come on here and say it is an absolute nightmare, because they will defend their children to the hilt”. One could be mistaken for thinking that trifle is actually a lot closer to the situation than she would have us believe, maybe she had a sibling with a severe disability and she felt that she missed out as a result? Maybe I barking up the wrong tree here, but especially her last post sounds to me as if it is born more out of bitterness and resentment than ignorance, which of course does not make it any less wrong, after all someone who has refused to accept someone with a disability in their lives is no less prejudiced than someone who simply doesn’t know about disability.

Bloo just wanted to wish you all the best and hope you are able to talk with your husband and come to some understanding BUT remember - this stress may be for naught... I think your dh may be anticipating the worse and I really believe you can't honestly make up your mind until you are in that situation... you might say you would do one thing or another but in reality you often surprise yourself.

Bloo - I really hope that discussion with your DH goes okay. In all likelihood if you did go ahead and have the tests, all the tests would come back low risk or negative and you'll never have to face up to this awful decision anyway. I do think it's worth having any tests available even if you wouldn't consider termination - there are certain problems (admittedly not many, but a few) which can be treated in utero, or where, if the doctors are aware of a problem in advance they can be prepared for any extra help/treatment the baby might need at birth eg do they need to have a paediatric surgeon there. I'd have the tests and then if there is no problem shown, you don't have to worry about your DH's opinion. If there is a high risk of DS, your DH might well change his mind anyway when it's a 'real' decision rather than theoretical.

As far as Trifle's posts go... just very sad that some people feel this way. When she suggested that people with kids who have SN might feel jealous of parents of 'normal' kids and their achievements... My Mum used to feel very jealous of other Mums because I was a so-called 'gifted child' (Ha! Can't even find my car keys half the time these days!) But as a result I was extremely demanding, a total nightmare. Argumentative, constantly frustrated and screaming blue murder in public places, throwing things, banging my head on the wall, needed lots of help at school because I couldn't fit in, got bored and disruptive, constantly in detention, in trouble with the police as a teenager... There are no antenatal tests which tell you how 'easy' a kid is going to be, how much work/trouble/worry they'll be to their parents, whether they'll get a job or end up in prison, whether they'll be a nice person, or how valuable that person is going to be to society. I reckon if there'd been an antenatal 'PITA' test, my Mum would have cut her losses :) As it is she just occasionally says 'So, I wonder if your baby will take after you at all...?' and watches me squirm!

thebecster -- personally I agree with you so far as noninvasive tests go (nuchal screening and whatever level of ultrasound they can do), but some of the tests (amnio and CVS) carry a chance of causing a miscarriage. The chance is small but it's still there (I had a friend who lost her "miracle" IVF baby after an amnio). So it's not such a simple decision to have all the tests available. I suspect you were talking about the non-invasive tests too, though, from context.

Good Luck Bloo. I hope you can both meet each other in the middle and feel happy

On a lighter note, if you can sort this out, when you both have such differing opinions, it will come in very useful when you have to confront the big parenting issues. Colour of shoes, for example. Ready Brek or Wheetabix? at the memory of it all