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Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Original poster

DH would abort but I wouldn't........help!

219 replies

Bloo · 25/04/2006 20:04

My DH really took me by surprise - he was asking at what stage we take all the tests for DS etc etc. I said that we should only have them if we would potentially act on the results as they come with some risk. to cut a long story short, DH said he would want to abort if the baby had DS. I am mortified. Has anyone else been in this situation>

OP posts:
Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 26/04/2006 22:57

nuchal and triple tests are screens, amnio will look for chromosomal abnormalities like DS or trisomy 13, but will only find other genetic conditions if a) there is a test for it and b) you run the test (which would normally need you to know that you were high risk).

Skerriesmum that's interesting. DH is from Ulster and I knew that terminations are illegal, but hadn't registered that they're illegal for disability (or are they in the north still?). TBH most people with disabled children do just have to get on with it because most disabilities are not picked up antenatally, or do not exist antenatally. It doesn't really feel like getting on with it though (although its not easy) because you have a real live child that you love, not a disability with no personality and a list of symptoms.

skerriesmum · 26/04/2006 22:58

I guess it is better to know what you're in for.

tobysmumkent · 26/04/2006 22:59

I've been trying to understand the "morally right" bit in Trifle's post....and I'm sorry, but I can't! At least, not in relation to ds. I remember at the time, I only really felt I could have terminated a pregnancy was if a child was so badly damaged, it's life was likely to be hours long and pain-filled. That said, I can understand many other reasons why a termination is the right decision...
However, with ds (and ASD), and so many other special needs, both detectable during pregnancy or not, I think you'll find the vast majority of parents are not being selfish, and are spending 24 hours a day reading, learning and teaching their child to be as independent as possible.

And part of this involves him starting at a special school, where he will receive an education that matches and understands his needs. It also works towards inclusion for a child's stronger areas "when that child is ready". Yes, it's a fantasy at the moment that he'll cope in mainstream....but the special school can help him get as close to achieving it, and will hopefully make it possible. So, sorry Trifle, don't understand the negativity towards special schooling either. Yes, it's expensive, but so many sections of our society could be termed a "drain" on resources....
And morally, my son has enriched my life, massively, taught me so much, and I hope I'm feeding that back into society. Morally, I think we have to become more accepting. (sorry, this is looking like a rant, which isn't what I do - honest!).

skerriesmum · 26/04/2006 23:00

Jimjams, I had ds in Dublin and there was no mention of any genetic testing throughout my pregnancy... you can get terminations in Belfast though, so I'd say probably throughout the North. (Thousands of women head North every year to get them.)

5ms · 26/04/2006 23:00

how can you know if you can't test for something.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 26/04/2006 23:00

Even with a test you might not know how affected a child will be for a long time anyway. We know ds3 is high risk for autism, we know his eldest brother will never live independently, but aged 15 months I still couldn't tell you whether ds3 is autistic or not, and if he is whether he will live an almost normal life, or one which requires 24 hours care.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 26/04/2006 23:01

can you skerriesmum- I thought 15 years ago you couldn't- didn't everyone go to Liverpool or something. Very rusty memory though.,

skerriesmum · 26/04/2006 23:02

My sil had one there when she was 18, that would have been just under 15 years ago...

bubble99 · 26/04/2006 23:03

That is the isue. Prenatal testing can only diagnose 'known quantities.'

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 26/04/2006 23:04

Even if you get told the condition though Skerrie you still don't know what you're in for. If someone told me that ds3 had autism and it had been tested for (or DS or anything else) I still wouldn't know what I was in for because I wouldn;t know how it would affect him and there is such huge variation in all conditions. OK people tend to consider the worst case scenario which may be sensible, but I think emotionally you have to prepare yourself for coming acorss the best case scenario at some stage in your life as well, so that you know you won't go fruitcake if you do.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 26/04/2006 23:05

maybe ther was a debate about it when it changed and that's why I remember it, or maybe I'm older than I think :o

tamum · 26/04/2006 23:08

"simply because you decided that you wanted a baby no matter what"

Eh? I would be surprised to know if anyone goes ahead and has a baby with DS after an amnio for that reason. They go ahead because the pregnancy has already started, the baby is there as far as they are concerned, and they can't bear to abort it (or hell, maybe they even think it's morally wrong). That's a dreadful argument.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 26/04/2006 23:10

Skerrie- \link{http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/comm18.asp\abortion and northern ireland}. I'm not sure I'm any the wiser after reading that, seems like officially you can't but you can, but would be easier to go to GB.

5ms · 26/04/2006 23:11

you can't judge a package by it's cover.

bauty is in the eye of the beholder.

all parents are biased.

it's what's inside that counts.

my ds with sn is the most beautiful, funny, loving, happy, fulfilled boy in the whole world.

Original poster
Bloo · 26/04/2006 23:19

Dare I say Trifle - you seem awfully quiet in between putting the cat among the pigeons.

OP posts:
5ms · 26/04/2006 23:51

oh oh. everybody left again. beginning to get a complex.BlushSad

skerriesmum · 27/04/2006 00:46

Oops Blush maybe I'm wrong about that actually, about both the personal story and the official policy in the North. It's not something sil has ever discussed with me, so I'm not completely clear on the details, she may have gone to the UK.
The mind really does begin to go after childbirth!

FioFio · 27/04/2006 07:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted

geekgrrl · 27/04/2006 09:35

well trifle, I certainly hope you have the cyanide at the ready should you or yours ever become a burden to the tax payer through illness, old age, accident, whatever....

What a nasty piece of work you are. Shame there's no prenatal testing for moral defects....

heartinthecountry · 27/04/2006 10:16

This thread has left me lost for words - I'm not surprised you have disappeared Trifle. I can't be bothered to say all the words I have in response to your comments because quite frankly, you obviously just don't and will never 'get it'. Actually, I will say this, I would defy you to spend an hour with my daughter and go away feeling that she should not exist.

wannaBe1974 · 27/04/2006 10:53

I think this is an issue that everyone has their own opinions on, and I think also that those opinions can change as our circumstances change. I.e. there are some who would not terminate a first pregnancy if there was a problem, but who might terminate a second pregnancy if they already had an NT child because of the strain an sn child would place on the family. TBH I think that science has almost progressed too far now, we can have scans at 12/18 weeks to determine whether our as yet unborn baby is perfect, and if not we can make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and then try for a healthy one next time. As for whether it is “morally right to bring a disabled child into the world”, just whose morals are you looking at? How small a disability would you consider worthy of termination? After all, not all disability is the same, and not all people with a disability are drains on the taxpayer, and even those who require full-time care have no less right to be here than those who don’t. If your child was so badly injured in an accident that he/she would have to spend the rest of his life being cared for by others, would you consider it “morally wrong” to allow him to stay alive? Somehow I don’t think so.

I have been totally blind since birth, I went to a school for visually impaired children, so I guess you could say I didn’t go to a “normal” school, but I had a normal education none the less. When I left school I got a job as an audio typest, I then went on to become a customer adviser in a call centre (for my sins) and subsequent to that I went to work as a finance administrator in one of the research councils, I achieved promotion there within 9 months and became a finance manager. I am not currently working but that’s because I’m a sahm to my DS who is 3.5, and my dh earns enough to enable me to do so. I am currently in the beginning stages of studying to become a counsellor. I have never claimed benefit in my life, I do not rely on the tax payer for anything. I am totally independent, and apart from the fact that I don’t have a driver’s licence (for obvious reasons) and I have a guide dog, I am as normal as anyone else on here. And yet I am registered as disabled. Now I would challenge anyone to tell me just why it would be morally wrong for me to have been allowed to be born.

eidsvold · 27/04/2006 12:20

trifle - I have two words for you BITE ME Angry NO - actually I have more.... who the hell do you think you are to jude the morals of others..... how dare you!!

What rock are you living under.... you obviously have no knowledge of Down syndrome in reality and are just spouting CRAP!!! i know a number of young people with Down syndrome who are attending main stream highschool.... who are gainfully employed - paying their bloody taxes and living independently...

suffer look in my daughter's eyes - my daughter who is adored at kindy who makes everyone we meet smile and actually brightens peoples days - SUFFER - bloody hell - I wish there were more like her rather than ignorant, selfish *** who think they are able to choose who has the right to live and die and the worth of another's life.....

and as to this statement

My question is, is it morally right to knowingly bring a disabled child into the world when you know that you will be totally reliant on the govenment, tax payer, education authority, local council etc to fund that child throughout its life simply because you decided that you wanted a baby no matter what.

Bloody hell - my husband and I are freaking tax payers and who the hell pays for her therapy and her education and her swimming lessons and so on - WE DO

FWIW I hope your child is never in accident or contracts an illness that may see them become impaired in anyway..... cause I wanna know who the hell you intend to give them back to and what you would intend to do that would be morally right

so get your head out of your arse and look around you. People like you make me ashamed to be part of the human race.

From one mum who is a very proud mum of a beautiful toddler- with down syndrome who is growing into a wonderful little girl with down syndrome and yes I bloody well knew she had down syndrome before she was Born Angry

SoupDragon · 27/04/2006 12:28

Well said, Eidsvold

Go get her! :)

Saggarmakersbottomknocker · 27/04/2006 12:34
dinosaure · 27/04/2006 12:38

Three cheers for Eidsvold.