DH would abort but I wouldn't........help!

[Bloo]

My DH really took me by surprise - he was asking at what stage we take all the tests for DS etc etc. I said that we should only have them if we would potentially act on the results as they come with some risk. to cut a long story short, DH said he would want to abort if the baby had DS. I am mortified. Has anyone else been in this situation>

Oh really. Trifle, your last post was one of the most offensive, hurtful posts I have ever read on MN. It's staggering that you can think it's OK to come on here and write stuff like that. I am actually pretty speechless.

Trifle - we didn't know about our dd's health problems prior to birth - if we had I hope we would have had the strength to continue with the pregnancy.

At 12 years old she has more sensitivity and compassion in her little finger than you obviously have.

Bloo, I hope you can work things out with your dh. Keep talking.

Trifle - I think you are falling into the big pit of seeing the disability not the person!

Most parents NT or SN, do not look at other peoples children and say 'I wish I had one like that' because we want and love our own children not other people's children, in the main.

It's not a think like a dress with a zipper that doesn't work, that you covet the one with the perfect zipper - it's a person, a child, your own blood whom you love as you love any other child of your own.

I imagine that parents of children with SN do have a relentlessly difficult time in some cases, but that doesn't equate to wishing you never had them or wanting the improved (NT) version of the child.

Life is a tangled web of all kinds of wonderful moments, mixed with awful times, moments of true beauty and wonder mixed with moments of terror and horror. That is what makes us all human, and airbrushing all the difficult bits out doesn't make the good bits better in any way!

This is a subject so very close to my heart at the moment, the autistic teenager of a mum at my DCs school has just died suddenly - needless to say his parents and his sibling are not jumping for joy at how wonderful their life is going to be now the millstone has gone - nothing could be further from the truth! The boy was loved, cherished wanted with all his foibles and his poor family are on their knees with grief:(:(:(

Trifle, you know I don't know how I feel about you - pity that you're not able to see beyond the black and white and for the terrible impact this must have on your life or horror and disgust at what an awful speciman of a person you are - but it is more the latter than the former right now!

Well said soapbox.

Trifle - the reality of bringing up a child with special needs is very different from how you imagine it in my experience. And you don't have it all sown up just because you know a family who has experienced it - you're looking in from the outside.

It's a good thing people like you are in general rare (ie people who think it's their right to air prejudiced views openly). Next you'll be telling us you think we should create an Aryan race (snort)

I don't sweep things under the carpet, have abrief stroll through SN and you'll find no-one does.

I have found that there are 2 types of people in this world. One group adore ds1 - and I get lots of comments about him being beautiful (he is), and far purer than an NT child and far more likeable than many as well (those a real comments from people who know him and like him). Ds1 has recently moved up classes at school. His teacher wrote a lovely message in his home -school book about how sad he was that he was leaving the class and "thanks for the loan of him" which I thought was very sweet. That's one group. The other group see no further than a boy who can't talk (which for some reason they think means can't communicate which it doesn't) doing strange things and behaving in a strange way - and that's it and they think how awful. I didn't realise that people quite as ignorant as Trifle existed, but still, live and learn.

Of course I will be sad when friend's kids go off to college, get married etc, but that doesn't negate ds1's existence.

Again I quote from Geroge and Sam

"Some people take the you-poor-thing-it-must-be-so-hard-for-you appraoch and whuilst I appreciate their concern I respond much more favourable to those peopke who take an interest in George and Sam, who praise them, find them interesting and beautiful, as I do. "

And another

"The boys are disconcerting, mess, destructive,asocail and unpredicatble, unlss you know them well. They are also non-maelvolent, unworldy handsome and intriguing,.....it's interssting- if frustrating to try and work out the reasons behind their oddities. Why does Sam take the stairs in a series of jumps both feet together. Wy, when George fell in a river, did he lie on his back supported by his billowing anorak and say "that's our stew and dumlings gone west?"

I would suggest that you read George and Sam trifle, but I suspect you would miss the point of it. You could read the SN section and learn but I would be wary of posting.

And for the record I never look at a friends child and wish I had theirs rather than mine. Of course I wish that ds1 wasn't disabled at times, but that is not the same thing at all. I don't think you understand anything about parenting at all.

You are th most patronising person I have come across. Of course people think about the future- but what are we meant to do- drown the child that we love so we can live our life to the full. Life pre-ds1 seems pretty meaningless now tbh, and when we have time away (either with ds2 ansd ds3 or alone- because gasp shock horror we manage that- not playing the martyr routine for the rest of our lives) we find that we miss ds1 before the end of the first day. Sure its nice to read a paper, eat out in a pub but it doesn't make up for him.

There's also the level of disability issue.... some people with DS work, have partners, fulfilling lives often more socially fulfilling and acceptable than some NT people. And of course there are other non-DS syndromes. Life with Sam is hard because of his sleeplessness / violence, but if you met him on most days you wouldn't even know he had SN unless I told you, you'd think he was shy. He will I hope grow up, go to Uni, get a job and marry. So if there had been a test for asd I should have what? aborted?

bugger off. yes life with Sam is hard and I wish to God there was no support, but i love him and he is as much part of the family as the others. I don't regret having him for a second and never have. Anyn one of my Nt kids could turn into drug addicts, criminals, wife abusers (God forbid).

"can you really look at your friends NT children and not wish that you had one like that, can you cope with the sympathetic nods that people give you, can you accept that when your friends children are out with their mates, going to college, getting their first job/home/travelling the world/getting married/having children that you dont ever look at them and just wish that your child could do that too."

It sounds very trite, but every achievement is so much more precious. When my cousin did her first communion at the age of 20, it was one of the proudest moments of my aunt's life. The idea that she was sitting there wishing her dd was someone else, is just mad. Really, insane. She was sitting there feeling overcome by triumph and pride that her dd had reached this milestone against all expectations. And she doesn't even notice the sympathetic nods any more because they are so irrelevant -she's got used to them.

Do you actually know anyone who is bringing up a child with DS or other SN trifle? Because it's a bit like saying you'd be envious of someone being able to run faster than your DS, or being better at reading than your DD. None of us look at other people's children and wish ours were like them, do we? Why should you think parents of kids who aren't NT would? I find that very odd.

(more support)

Sorry cross posted with Jimjams who has said it much better.

There's a teacher in France with DS (full DS, not mosaic AFAIK).

Trifle's pity for us all obviously doesn't extend as far as seeking out families of children with SN and offering to lend a hand. Another pair of hands makes a huge difference for a family with a child with SN. I had loads of help with this easter and we all had a whale of a time (ds2 and ds3 as well as ds1). Oh no far better to feel pity for the elderly couple who have never been out (lots of elderly couples never go out ime, and if they really haven't been out in that long then they've obviously made that their choice, or been incredinbly unlucky seeking help), and tell us we're sweeping it all under the carpet and look at those who are disabled as being a little bit distasteful (which is how the posts come across- something that can be disposed of easily).

she always does say it so well

not sure this is helping with the initial problem though, pehaps we should treat trifle like a naughty child and remove the attention she's getting?

Is Trifle a troll? I can't remember ever seeing a post from them before or is it another mner posting under an alias?

Has anyone reported the posts because quite frankly I have never read anything more offensive and I didn't think the site let this happen.

This isn't restricting freedom of speech or limiting posts just good manners.

I used to not really know what to think about SN, mainly b/c I'd not been exposed to many folks w/SN and not having had kids myself. It was just sort of another world.

But something that changed how I felt forever is my best friend's brother. He was a healthy, handsome 19-year-old queued up for a nightclub one Saturday night when someone drove a car through the queue. He died. Well, the old Michael did. The new one is very, very brain damaged. He is in his 40s now, w/a mental and emotionaly capacity of a 4-year-old.

As my friend said, 'There are no guarantees in life. That's what I learned when Michael was hit by that car.'

It's not my choice to say whose life is worth living besides my own.

And having a healthy child at birth is a guarantee of big, fat FA.

Actually I;m going to bore everyone with my easter holiday- we went to the beach twice, the park, the moors, swimming twice (requested by ds1 no less), the playground. DS2 went to the zoo, ds1 went to respite. And ds3 stormed around the place throwing paddies. It was good fun, and with an extra pair of hands wasn't stressful (tiring but not moment to moment stressful).

expat - I've met someone at the swimming club who is brain damaged after a motorbike accident. He still has young children (and grown up children) and grandchildren. He said to me something like "ah well it's all change and change is good, you just have to learn new things" or something like that.

Sounds like a good time was had by all Jimjams

It was - and point being that offering to lend a hand is more use than casting pitying looks etc!

Jimjams - I really liked George and Sam - in the end I didn't find it at all scary (regression).

Jimjams - you sound very upbeat at the moment - clearly the holiday did you all good:)

Is DS1 still getting on well at his new school? How are things looking with DS3? and is DS2 being his usual sweet self

I think society's attitudes towards people with disabilities has changed dramatically in the last 50 years (I'm thinking of Trifle's reference to the friend who has a middle-aged sister with DS) It's now recognised that the abilities of people with DS vary wildly. 5O years ago and perhaps until even recently people born with DS were 'written off.' It's now recognised that these people can and often do lead independant and useful lives.

A while ago my mum came to visit and we went out in the evening for a meal. On the way home we walked past the bus station and a young guy with DS stopped us to ask which bus he needed to get to Kingston, a town nearby. I told him and he thanked me and walked off towards the bus stop. My mum asked me whether we should go and make sure he got onto the bus OK. I told her that, like most late teenagers he would be horrified at being pursued by a couple of comparative wrinklies like us!! Her perception of him was based upon her ingrained perception of people with DS.

You know

in my family 2 kids had a rare and almost untratable form of leaukaemia, one died one didn't due to a basically miracle. it's so rare they tested them to find out if there was a genetic link (Grandad worked on the nuclear reactor development), the results were inconclusive.

Every bruise Sam gets, or the other two, I get a small scare. I watch my uncle who lost my cousin and he still isn't coping after 25 years.

So do i feel that having SN my life is over? Do I Hell! I give thanks that Sam is here, and that so are Stirly and Harry.

That's a very good point bubble.

DS2 is very whingy now soapbox, but still a sweety really. DS3 hmmmm 70% sure he's ok. If he's anything I think its ADHD mixed with foul temper- he's a whirlwind. DS2 has just gone up a class, seems happy enough, seems pleased to be back at school. Is very cuddly at the moment but has this new thing where he presses his chin really hard into your face and you get trapped flailing around while he's laughing. It's affecitonate but very painful.

I always find it sad that people tend to home in on the physical disabilities. I have always found terminations for DS really upsetting, and I am in no way wishing to judge any individuals who have done this, but it does seem like the thin end of the wedge to Eugenics for me. How far do you take the argument of "disability". Soon they will be able to find genetic markers for all sorts of disabling social behaviour: depression, agression, addiction etc. Do we start deciding that people who have the potential to be socially "disabled" will be too much of a burden to carry too. What about late onset "disabilities", such as cancer, alzheimers, motor neurone disease, multiple sclerosis? Where do you draw the line?
I spent alot of my childhood playing with SN children as my Mother was friendly with the nuns who ran the home for children with SN. We lived in the countryside and we had lots of fun times with all of these children, some of whom were very profoundly disabled. I also worked as a volunteer helper for two years at a school for profoundly disabled children too, and I can honestly say that it was a really happy place. I don't claim to know that much about SN, but my experiences have shown me that life can be enjoyed in many different ways, even when the bodies & minds inhabited by some of our fellow humans are different from our own.
In response to Bloo's original question, my ex-H was the same as yours, but I knew his decsion process was motivated by fear. I told him, we made our babies and we were resonsible for them and I was adament that I would not be terminating for DS.

And part of the problem is that people with obvious SN aren't in the public eye.

One of the 'Tracey Beaker' actors has CP and when I first saw her I found myself watching her and her disability, rather than the role she was playing. Now I don't even think about her CP. If this happened more often in mainstram TV, CP and other SN would become 'normal.' Does that make sense??

Really sorry to hear of your situation bloo...as others have said on the thread, keep talking to each other and listening to each other. That has come out wrong, but I just mean that I sometimes can talk and talk at DH without really taking in what he is saying back. It is so difficult when you are discussing such important things to take it all in.... hope you work it out together soon.

Am completely at some of the posts on this thread, when the OP was looking for support in her dilemma with DH rather than others' views on whether she should continue with the pregnancy. I am appalled at how some people have abused the anonymity offered by MN to air frankly offensive views.