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Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Wow; it's only circumcision..

781 replies

Chloejp91 · 29/12/2010 22:11

Before I get killed, I'm not suggesting it is only circumsion, that's just the title of this thread.

I'm due in less than 4 weeks and I'm having a boy. I'm definitely going to circumcise him. It's part of my culture and my partner's culture so it's going to be done. I just feel sad that it's seen as such a bad thing, where there are some benefits to it.

Anyone circumsised/circumsizing their sons?

OP posts:
SVH78 · 06/01/2011 16:12

twofalls - nothing has been said that has made us change our minds although we have considered everything that has been said. My DH has seen the post and is actually quite scathing about some of the opinions that have been expressed by people who have not had experience of circumcision when he himself had it done as an infant and has no issues at all with it.

I am Muslim (of mixed cultural heritage) and my DH is Jewish.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 16:13

ILoveIt - I do not agree that it will be pain of some degree. Discomfort is different.

To have the procedure as an adult would be far worse - research shows that the risk of psychological impact is greater with age.

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 06/01/2011 16:15

ok so why do it if tehre will be any discomfort? why would you chose to do that to your baby that you are obliged by law to protect?

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 06/01/2011 16:15

and I'm not sure how you are so sure tehre is no pain?

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 16:31

ILoveIt - for religious/cultural reasons. Just because it wasn't non-negotiable for us doesn't mean that we disregard it completely. If we had felt that the negatives were too great to go ahead then we would not be going ahead, but we don't.

I appreciate that no one can be sure that there is no pain but from research into the pain relief methods discussing with doctors who are friends, witnessing the procedure and also discussing with people who have had the procedure done/had the procedure done on their sons, we think that it can be done with minimal discomfort.

The procedure itself is lawful, if it wasn't, we wouldn't do it.

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 06/01/2011 16:36

"If we had felt that the negatives were too great to go ahead then we would not be going ahead, but we don't."

so the 'discomfort' of your child, risk of complications, risk of psychological problems, risk of destroying his relationship with his penis, and risk of destroying his relationship with you aren't good enough negatives to urge you to wait til he is older when he can make his own decision?

right, well priorities are a funny things aren't they. hope this religion is worth it, whatever it is promising you.

done with this. you have no rational argument.

pooka · 06/01/2011 16:37

It's so hard though to understand why you would entertain an operation with risks where there is no medical need.

So I your ds needed a circumcision because he was one of the very unlucky/rare ones with medical issues, then obviously there is no question that you would get the operation done (and it would be under general anaesthetic). There is no alternative in that case.

But without medical need I cannot comprehend why someone would put their child at risk of complications (which do I'm afraid include death) by opting for circumcision.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 16:42

ILoveIt - just because you don't agree with our reasoning does not make us wrong or irrational - just as are disagreement with you does not make you as a matter of fact wrong. As I keep saying, people clearly have very differing views on this issue. I am trying to explain our thinking in the interests of debate but like I said earlier, I do agree that no more needs to be said as we are simply going over the same ground.

pooka - I fully appreciate that it is very difficult for people not in our situation to understand and I have tried to explain as best as can.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 16:45

our not are

ILoveIt - also the risks that you refer to are risks that were taken in relation to my DH and many many of our friends and family and none of these risks materialised.

Suzannesee · 06/01/2011 16:50

Chloejp91

I can't understand why circumcision is so unpopular in the UK either. I hope it will encourage you to know that I have circumcised both my sons as infants and they are fine. Unlike you I didn't have any cultural reason to do it, just my personal preference after discovering and marrying a man who was done as a baby because his mother (a nurse) believed it has lifelong benefits.

Though he is happy with his penis the way it is, my husband left the decision up to me. My mother was encouraging, telling me of her time on the wards when many men and boys came in for this common operation because of problems. MumsNet frequently has threads about these because mums have encountered them. Often these poor boys have to put up with discomfort for months or years when doctors or parents wait to see if circumcision can be avoided.

Often it can't and after lots of prescriptions and courses of antibiotics have failed there is no alternative but the inevitable circumcision. Apart from the pain and misery these boys endure, prolonged use of medication is not wise. It would be kinder to cut at the first sign of trouble and give the boy lifelong access to the benefits you have listed.

I can hear howls of protest going up when people read that but their only answer is denial of facts. It astonishes me that UK doctors are not wise to the evidence in favour of circumcision which has emerged these last few years. It is an old operation worthy of a rethinking of attitudes in a modern medical setting. We have and promote vaccination as prevention being better than cure. Why not encourage circumcision alongside it?

You must by now be close to delivery Chloejp91 ? I hope all goes well with that and the subsequent circumcision.

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 06/01/2011 16:52

"also the risks that you refer to are risks that were taken in relation to my DH and many many of our friends and family and none of these risks materialised."

so that is proof that it wont happen to your son?? Hmm

ever heard that cliche, "it won't happen to me"?

"I fully appreciate that it is very difficult for people not in our situation to understand "

yes it is difficult for loving, caring parents to put themselves in the shoes of someone who would do this. it goes against everything being a parent is about.

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 06/01/2011 16:54

suzannesee

chloes and her aprtner have taken the decision not to circumcise tehir son based on the links in this thread. she was appalled at some of the things she read and saw.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 16:56

ILoveIt - and that is where you, me and the many many parents who choose to circumcise their sons will have to agree to differ!

It is your opinion that parents who love and care for their children would not do this and that it goes against everything being a parent is all about. This is a very sweeping statement and I am sure that you really do not believe that the millions of parents that choose this do not love and care for their children when that simply cannot be true!

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 06/01/2011 17:01

maybe they do love their children but they clearly love their religion or culture more and they aren't caring for them when they do this.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 17:37

ILoveIt - again we will have to agree to differ on that!

GenevieveHawkings · 06/01/2011 17:38

SVH78 you may not think that a module in a degree course is enough for me to comment on a particular religion - why is that? I've read academic works about major world religions (including Islam and Judaism), attended lectures given by academics and written essays. Let me tell you that it doesn't take long studying any of the major organised religions of the world to see that there is very little to separate them and that they are all about control, fiction and superstition.

Anyway, that aside, you could live to be 1000, do as much "research" as you like, canvas opinions from as many people as you like and you'd still never be able to gain any understanding whatsoever of what it feels like to undergo and recover from the procedure that you're planning to inflict on your poor unborn child. You will never know anything about it what it feels like. It matters not one jot that all the men you know can't remember the pain they experienced. That does not make it alright. Nor does it matter that they have no complaints about thier sex lives. They have only ever been sexually active since being circumcised so that's a complete and utter non-argument too.

Scrolling back over things you've said since I was last on, I must admit, I've now discovered that you are little more than a selfish hypocrite and this actually makes what you're planning to do to your poor unborn child far, far worse in my view.

On Thu 06-Jan-11 at 15:15:26 the eminently sensible QBEE referred to you as a "religious/cultural pick and mixer". She was absolutely spot on.

Now if you were a poor, brow-beaten, down-trodden woman who felt she had no choice but to comply with what her deeply patriarchal community/religion dictated, or even if you were a real blinkered religious zealot, I wouldn't like it, and wouldn't find it easier to justify what you're doing but I might find it a little easier to understand.

However, when at 23:01 on 5-1-11 you said:

"I am married to a liberal Jew against the wishes of my community and those of my faith so I am not at all one to be brainwashed or 'deluded'.

And said previously:

"my DH is Jewish but not particularly religious (otherwise he wouldn't be married to me!) so his choice is not guided by societal pressure to fit in."

People can see you as the "religious/cutural pick and mixer" that QBEE so incisively pointed out you are.

It makes some of the things you have said here an utter crock of shite.

Things like:

On 4-1-11 at 15:32:

"We have made the decision to circumcise our son for religious reasons"

On 4-1-11 at 14:58:

"People who circumcise for religious reasons do so because they believe that that is what God wants - what better reason could there be?!

On 4-1-11 at 15:57:

"When a person has faith, he/she follows what is commanded in the holy book/laws and does not have to ask why. The reason is that it is what was ordered to be done and that is a good reason for people of faith."

What is nearer the truth is what you said on 06-Jan-11 at 15:34:

"The starting point for us with religious rules is that we follow them unless we can see a good enough reason why we shouldn't."

and on 6-1.11 at 16:05:

Our religions see many things as necessary which we don't follow, it doesn't mean that we don't think that they are necessary, just that we choose not to comply with those 'necessities'.

What a shame that one of things the pair of you consider to be so "necessary" is inflicting unnecessary pain and harm on your own child.

It seems neither of you consider it "necessary" to adhere to any rules, complusions or principles when deciding who you want to have sex with and choose to marry.

Apparently your minded principles and piety go right out of the window when it comes to deciding what's best for yourselves.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 17:45

GenevieveHawkings - your opinions are noted but they are just that - opinions. They do not change what we think and the decision that we have made.

In the interests of debate I have tried to explain our reasoning and though process behind our decision but to keep repeating these is a waste of time and so I intend not to do so.

We clearly have very different viewpoints on a number of issues!

GenevieveHawkings · 06/01/2011 17:46

your minded principles

should read:

your high minded principles

GenevieveHawkings · 06/01/2011 17:48

Yes, but you have tried to relate all your reasons back to your religious/cultural beliefs and said that I'll never understand that because I don't agree with them.

You have no credibility here whatsoever and nothing you say stands up simply because it's clear for all to see that you have no real regard for them yourself when it comes to making decision in your own best interests.

You are a hypocrite.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 17:48

Also you will never know anything about it what it feels like either whereas my DH and family members have actually been through the procedure and so are infintely more qualified than you to speak about it! Their opinions are therefore the ones that are relevant to me.

I accept that you don't understand but thankfully I am not seeking your understanding.

GenevieveHawkings · 06/01/2011 17:50

And no, they are not opinions - they are FACTS that I have noted about YOU from the things YOU have told us here about yourself and what YOU believe and what YOU have done.

midori1999 · 06/01/2011 17:51

Why would anyone who has to justify to themselves (and maybe others) why they had bits cut off their newborn baby change their minds? Surely they have to believe it was necessary and painless in order to stay sane? No-one wants to have to say 'I chose to have bits cut of my baby and I was wrong to do so, it put him through immense pain and he may regret it in later life' do they?

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 06/01/2011 17:51

"whereas my DH and family members have actually been through the procedure and so are infintely more qualified than you to speak about it!"

as infants where they had no voice or language to explain their pain and would hav eno adult recollection of it.

this does not qualify them to recommend it for anyone.

SVH78 · 06/01/2011 17:53

definition of hypocritical is: "behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case" - I don't think so!!!

GenevieveHawkings · 06/01/2011 17:54

They were babies you moron - they can't remember the pain. That doesn't make it right though does it?

Why doesn't it penetrate your totem pole head that you can't carry out a procedure like that on a human being and recovery from it be totally pain free?!

No mater what the men around you tell you, it doesn't make it right that this unneccessary barbarism and violation of human rights is perpetuated by generation upon generation.

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