Wow; it's only circumcision..

[Chloejp91]

Before I get killed, I'm not suggesting it is only circumsion, that's just the title of this thread.

I'm due in less than 4 weeks and I'm having a boy. I'm definitely going to circumcise him. It's part of my culture and my partner's culture so it's going to be done. I just feel sad that it's seen as such a bad thing, where there are some benefits to it.

Anyone circumsised/circumsizing their sons?

Sorry, that should read 30 % in the USA not UK.

SVH78 Wed 05-Jan-11 18:31:37
"It's backward" - I presume you mean in your opinion it's backward.

Nope, I genuinely believe religious practices that require mutilation, covering, weird sexual clean/not clean, meat clean/not clean....all of it is backward. Believing in a magical being in the sky is backward enough but allowing that belief to cut off your child's foreskin is plain weird.

TheFeministParent,

"And masterbation must need extra help too, that's why Americans are obsessed with lube."

It's "masturbation", by the way. And, I assure you that I have never had the least need to resort to lube. And, as to sex being "dry" to start with, it is normally the female who provides the "lube". If your partner failed to stimulate you properly or you had your mind on Andrea Dworkin at the time, that might have been the problem.

Any axiomatic belief is "backward" as you like to put it. I hope you do not embrace some of modern feminism which starts with the premise that we live (wherever in the world) in a patriarchal society without examining the evidence for or against the hypothesis.

TheFeministParent - even if it is your genuine belief it is still an opinion!!!!!!

As I have said previously, our decision is based on a number of factors including religious and societal considerations the point that I was trying to make is that my DH is not being pressured by the religious community and is not blindly following those religious laws as has been suggested.

Who is Andrea Dworkin? Is that a typo? Only it's hilariously ironic that you criticise mine and make one of your own.

larry...What are you talking about?

SVH...What societal considerations would make you cut your child? Seems to me you are subservient to your husband as you clearly have no opinion of your own, which stands to reason as I imagine you belong to one of those awful religions that values a woman as much as foreskin.

TheFeministParent - and that just goes to show how much of what you spout is nonsense!!! I am in no way subservient to my husband!! All opinions that I have stated here (unless I have attributed them otherwise) belong to me!! I am a highly educated successful career woman with my own mind and opinions. I was struggling to take you seriously as it was but after that narrow minded, ridiculous and ill informed comment you have lost the minute modicum of credibility that you may have had in my eyes!

So SVH, can you please explain to me exactly why you are going to do this to your child. I still don't understand. You say "our decision is based on a number of factors including religious and societal considerations but I genuinely don't understand what these factors are. I know they must be extremely important to you for you to remove a part of your son's anatomy without his consent, take the chance he may blame you for it in later life and put him through immense pain. Seeing my DD in pain at 5 days old being preped for a blood transfusion was one of the worst things that has every happened to me. To choose this for your child is something I cannot comprehend.

twofalls - my husband's religion/culture advocates circumcision, so does mine. All the men in our family are circumcised and so we chose to consider it for our son. After researching the procedure we have chosen to go ahead with it. What I have been trying to say (and thought I had made clear several times) is that we are not being pressured into circumcison by family/friends/religion. These things are all factors in our decision but there is no element of force being placed upon me or my DH.

I wholeheartedly resent people stating that I/we are being forced/pressured or that I am subservient and am just doing as I am told when that is not the case at all.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the issue of circumcision but they are just wrong to assume that this is not a decision that has been made by our free will (as is out legal right in this country).

This thread has degenerated from a debate about people's opinions on circumcision and sharing (often conflicting) research to personal attacks, insults and ridiculous assumptions.

I would like to stop posting on this thread as we are now going round in circles and everyone has made their opinions perfectly clear. However, I will not stand by and allow people like TheFeministParent to make narrow minded, ill informed comments about me, my DH and our community.

I think everyone (?) on here agrees that:

1. RIC isn't medically necessary

1. Any health benefits are, at best, debatable

1. The procedure is painful even with local anaesthesia (the degree of pain is still in question)

1. There is a degree of risk with regard to infection, complications, problems in later years (again, the degree of risk is still being debated)

Would that be correct to say?

So in the 'reasons to do it' category, we are pretty much only left with cultural and religious considerations.

I think with regard to these, those who oppose circumcision only have a problem with the procedure being carried out on non-consenting infants and young children, in whatever circumstances.

So in terms the procedure, culture and religion aren't really relevant. The issue is whether it is ethical to intentionally cause pain and potential harm to babies and young children for reasons which have to do with parental preference, not medical necessity.

SVH, thanks for trying to explain it. I have to say I still don't understand WHY. Why does your religion advocate it and WHY do you think it's the best thing for your son. I genuinely still don't understand your reasoning. Surely you can see why people are under the impression religion forces this on people because nobody on this thread has given a compelling reason as to WHY it is required. I still haven't seen a clear rationale for doing other than "because my religion advocates it".

HouseofBamboo - your last 2 paragraphs do not take into account that consent can be given on behalf of the infants by parents (as pointed out by Larry yesterday).

Procedure, culture and religion may not be relevant to you, but they are relevant to many others, including me.

twofalls - I fully appreciate that you don't understand why. That is your perogative just as it is mine to to believe that it is the appropriate thing to do. Religions advocate circumcision for a variety of reasons including cleanliness and a sacrifice to God (I do appreciate that these will not appear to be good reasons to you but I am trying to explain more specifically).

To some people, doing something because their religion advocates it is a clear rationale. Again I appreciate that this is not the case for you and that you do not agree that this is correct but again this is a situation where people have the right to choose what to believe.

Re parental consent, I suppose it comes down to the ethics of consenting to something which causes pain, has only debatable benefits, and carries risks.

I think it is fair to separate religion/culture from ethics in this case, since otherwise things do tend to descend into criticising other people's religion/culture, and in the process getting side-tracked from the real issues.

HouseofBamboo - I agree, that is what it does come down to and that is the issue that has been considered by the GMC and the BMA when deciding whether to allow parents to give consent to infant circumcision for non medical reasons.

I agree HouseofBamboo, I think it actually do think it comes down to what is ethical. For example, if you religion calls for you to avoid Pork then making this decsion for your children in the name of relegion is fair - it does not cause them pain, it does not contravene their human rights, there are no risks involved and it is utterly reversible - they can start eating Pork at any time they want.

To make a choice for your child to remove a part of his anatomy, to put them at risk of infection, to contravene their basic human rights and and to cause them great pain in the name of religion is an entirely different matter.

SVH, thank you again for trying to explain. I suppose I find it hard to understand why an obviously educated and intelligent woman such as yourself has so much faith in their religion as to put their child through this procedure, simply because their religion requires it. I admit I am glad I have no part in any religion that requires this kind of "sacrifice". To me it seems barbaric and outdated and has no place in this modern world. But I accept that is my opinion.

Do you have children yet? I do wonder if you at the point you have to hand your precious newborn baby son over to have this done you may, in your heart, feel differently.

SVH - thanks for explaining your reasons. To be honest, I don't think there is much more to be said. You believe that you are doing the right thing and nothing, at the moment anyway, is going to convince you otherwise.

Twofalls - I do not have children yet and I do appreciate that I may feel different when my son is born. I don't think that I will but as you quite rightly infer, I can't know how I will feel until he is here.

HouseofBamboo - I agree there is not much more to be said.

I thank both of you for providing your opinions and for the links which you have provided on this thread.

i feel sick.

i cannot belive that anyone would do this to a baby.

it is abuse,why would you torture a baby?

they are silent because they are shocked,they trusted you,and you sent them into that pain.

i am not often so black and white about anything.

but unless it is a medical need

then it is utterly unacceptable,and should be illegal.

your poor,poor baby.

clumsymumluckybaby - Can I suggest that you read the whole thread. The debate has already covered the points raised in your post and has said all that needs to be said on the issue.

im sorry,
as i said,im not used to feeling so black and white about anything.
i read half,and felt pretty ill.

SVH78, You have made no comment at all on my post above regarding your link.

Copied from the link you gave me, and from my previous post.

"1.By ?therapeutic" we mean that the procedure is necessary to deal specifically with a medical problem. By ?non-therapeutic" we mean that the procedure is for any other purpose than medical benefit."

No medical benefit then...

HouseofBamboo said:

"I think everyone (?) on here agrees that:

1. RIC isn't medically necessary

1. Any health benefits are, at best, debatable

1. The procedure is painful even with local anaesthesia (the degree of pain is still in question)

1. There is a degree of risk with regard to infection, complications, problems in later years (again, the degree of risk is still being debated)

Would that be correct to say?

So in the 'reasons to do it' category, we are pretty much only left with cultural and religious considerations.

I think with regard to these, those who oppose circumcision only have a problem with the procedure being carried out on non-consenting infants and young children, in whatever circumstances."

Yes those children are non consenting, just because their parents have consented for them doesn't mean it is what the baby wants.

In my experience most babies want nothing more than to be clean, warm cuddled and fed.

In most countries, when our grandparents become old and are no longer compis mentis enough to make their own decisions, invariably it falls to their next of kin to provide consent for medical procedures.

I am having trouble imagining a scenario where an old man slips into loony land and the grandchildren immediately book him in for a circumcision.

I agree wholeheartedly with HouseofBamboo. Her post is an excellent sum up of the view of most of the people on this thread.

The original op has decided not to circumcise her child. I would hope that anyone else considering the procedure takes the time to read this thread especially the links on it.

Many people "assume" that circumcision is not a big deal has medical "positives" and to be honest, don't think about it too much.

For the reality of circumcision see Houseofbamboo's post, I think the only thing I feel compelled to add is.....

ITS UNNECESSARY

The medical profession and lawyers have to tread very carefully around the subject of circumcision. It is exactly the same as abortion - make it illegal and people will still do it but in backstreet situations. They will never make it illegal because the death rate would soar.

Children are still being sacrificed in the world and Im sure those mothers that are handing their children over believe it to be the right thing. Thank whatever god you have that it is only the end of a penis you are sacrificing and not the whole child like some are expected to do. Although Im sure if you were highly educated in Uganda you would still be unswerving in your 'beliefs'.

I find the antiquated reasoning behind circumcision as bizarre as, but on a par with, human sacrifice, beheading woman, suicide bombers, paedophilia - all excused (and some even celebrated!) under the heading religion or beliefs.

For those interested - there is an excellent doc on youtube by a Jewish film maker (his dad performs circumcisions)

SVH78 Thu 06-Jan-11 12:23:05

It's okay, I didn't think you had any credibility. Only a cruel person that conveniently overlooks overwhelming evidence just so she can cut her own child's penis. Shame on you.

TheFeministParent - overwhelming evidence?! Not overlooked as that is not the case. As I have said numerous times and as has been acknowledged by the sensible people on this post - the evidence is equivocal

Thankfully TheFeministPerson, I do not respect your statements in the slightest and so it means nothing to me that you think I am cruel. I know the truth, as do those who know me in RL! You may wish shame on me but again, thankfully I feel none.

Ladysoandso - thank you for the link. I will watch it just as I have looked at the other links posted on this thread.

This has been done to death now. Everyone has their opinions on this. Everyone thinks that the people who disagree with their opinions are wrong

Some people have lowered themselves to personal insults rather than presenting their opinion in a sensible manner(TheFeministParent). I thank those who have presnted opinions which differ from mine in a sensible, rational and adult manner and I respect those opinions.

Enough has been said.