for mums 2be moving on...part TWO

[Marina]

Wills, so pleased the baby is the right way up. I don't know much about pre-eclampsia but understood it is always a risk if you had it in your first pregnancy. Very much hoping Mears or Leese is around to enlighten you professionally. Let us know how you are doing, and let's all send the vibe equivalent of raspberry leaf tea in the direction of the Peak District this weekend!

Katherine, scans to estimate weight are notoriously inaccurate...BPD is the Biparietal diameter, there is some generally useful stuff here explaining terms and stuff. HTH

hi marina, er has just started! hope they have it where you are! thinking of you, love, bkxxx

CRL - is crown rump length - measurement from crown of head to bum basically. Please do not dabble with aromatherapy unless it is oils 'prescibed' by an aromatherapist. Lavender is not advisable in labour I understand. I do not know too much about it all but we have midwives at work who have studied it and the advice is you need to know what you are doing. I think your baby is probably best being in for another couple of weeks Katherine to grow a bit more The baby will come when it is ready. Enjoy there last few days of relative peace @O

Thanks Mears - problem is they don't want to leave it to grow as they think it hasn't grown at all in the last 3 weeks although there is no sign of anything wrong with the placenta, cord or fluid - they've muttered about induction and also want me to give birth in hospital for monitoring which is the horrible thing. And of course it has planted worries in my mind that something might go wrong. I just want this little one out now so I know it is safe and they will leave me alone. Feeling very low in spirits this morning.

Although I hate to disagree with someone like Mears (deep breath) I do beleive that oils are safe during pg and labour as long as you are careful. There are some that you should avoid for the sake of the baby as they are too "strong" but lavender is great - it helps relax, is uplifting, analgesic and is great for healing afterwards. Just don't go mad with it or it can make you a bit heady. Rose is another one recommended for late pg and birth as it is a uterine tonic. And Clary which is a uterine tonic and helps reduce hyperventilation. There are others which are safe to use but these are the best. Oils with stimulant properties such as rosemary should be used sparingly or not at all where BP etc is a problem. All oils should be used in smaller doses than normal because of the baby. If in doubt err on the side of caution. HTH.

Off to drown my sorrows with a large bar of galaxy now. Wasn't ER awful last night with that mum and baby. Half hope Marina didn't see it.

I totally agree that oils are safe during labour, but you need to have a proper knowledge of which ones to use ( and hands up, I don't . That was why I was suggesting that advice is sought from a trained aromatherapist so that the correct ones are used. We had a woman bring ibn something that was inadvisable but fortunately the midwife looking after her knew that it wasn't beneficial. If I had the time I would certainly study it.

Are you booked for another scan in a week so that the growth can then be assessed? Serial scans are better to actually monitor growth, with a fortnight between probably better but you are running out of time. Sorry you are having this hassle Katherine. What do you think about this baby's size? If all the other assessments on scan were fine, hopefully they will not rush in to induce you.

HI Mears - my feeling is that baby is OK. Yes probably small but personally I don't reckon it will be as small as they say. The thing that makes me so angry is they said they were worried so I needed a scan to rule out problems. Fine so I had the scan and it ruled out problems but then they seemed to decide to ignore the scan and fret anyway which just doesn't seem fair. If the scan showed any problems I'd be in there like a shot but it doesn't so I don't see the rush.

The Dr did comment about serial scans but I think they will be reluctant to let me wait another 2 weeks for another one. I suspect if things haven't happened by next week then it will be really hard to put them off. The Dr even suggested I hadn't gone into labour BECAUSE the baby was too small which seems mad given the no. of premature babies which arrive. Its just so frustrating. Anyway we will just have to see what happens.

I have to say you are getting some strange advice Katherine. Like you my little one is small but that seems to have sent my lot in the opposite direction, that of leaving baby alone for longer and confirming my fear that baby is likely to be late. Induction has certainly not been mentioned, even given my bp which unfortunately is still high . My consultant hopes to get my bp stable to allow me to go late etc. They checked the cord and have told me that things are flowing well so they are not worried. The only difference is that I've already agreed to come in for the labour . Being a little cynical here I know!

Mears - I've heard similar things about aromatherapy so once again I'll play safe. Alarm bells are ringing over the rosemary (currently my favourite herb) that it raises bp and I desperately don't want to do that but had hoped that Katherine's description of lavender meant the opposite. Whilst I've got you... Why are aromatherapy oils "banned" but not the herbs? Why is ok for me to eat rosemary just not smell it etc? I've been very curious about this.

wills - my understanding is that the essential oil contains a much much stronger concentration of the active ingredients in the herb, i.e. it takes a large amount of the herb to make a few drops of oil.

Thank you eefs - that makes sense - had been curious

Haven't a clue Wills. I would imagine it is that oils have very high concentrations of herbs , much higher than what you ingest when eating. Fascinating subject, isn't it?

Snap, eefs

Well this morning I had what I can only describe as tightenings 10 minutes apart. This went on for an hour but they weren't painful - just incredibly regular so waited to see what happened. DD appeared at 8am and they prmptly stopped. Oh well at least it meant I got the holiday cottage cleaned and ready for new guests this afternoon. One less worry. Then I had to mow the lawn with BIL's grnadfathers old mower. Well you can imagine. It really is an antique push job - took about an hour to do a tiny patch. Wouldn't mind except it looks flattened rather than mown but if that doesn't get things going nothing will.

Had a chat with DH last night about due dates. We both reckon the dates are a week out and I'm really 39 weeks today. A due date of today would mean the baby was concieved exactly 14 days after my MC and given how physical it was I just can't see it. Also I was back in hospital with that clot a week later and continued to bleed for about a week after so I really can't imagine we'd resumed activities at that point. A little more ammunition against the Dr I suppose. And my own MW is back today which is also good news. Might ask her to check me over before I see the Dr next week so I can prepare myself for whatever he's going to say.

Its very quiet on here at the moment. You are not all sneaking off to give birth are you? Wills how is the BP? Great news about Marina. Hope she's bearing up OK.

I'm still here. Spent the day trying to teach dd to swim. She had a week's intensive course and has really come on. She was desperate to go to a water park this afternoon but I had to explain that since she couldn't swim we couldn't go. She was heartbroken and kept saying "but mummy I was trying to be brave". So we took her to a local open air pool - I thought it would be too much for her but instead she's started to jump in (with daddy catching) and is now taking her first strokes - I'm soooo proud.

As for bp its starting to settle. We agreed to buy a bp monitor and they've given me some sticks to pee on (lovely!). I'm now set up to monitor myself for the next four weeks. I'll see the community midwife next week and the consultant the week after. He's assured me that as long as the bp doesn't go above 95 and there's no protein in my waters then he leave me alone to go into labour naturally . He's upped my iron pills because it seems I'm still very low but warned me that it will be sometime before they take effect. However I was then told that chocolate helps, as does orange juice - so now I have a valid excuse for all those chocolate muffins that I have a sudden craving for. I say craving because when not pregnant/breastfeeding, I'm not that keen on chocolate but when pregnant I can't get enough!

Katherine - how the heck are you managing to mow a lawn? The heat has really really got to me, along with the bp pills and being aneamic I feel I'm doing well getting out of bed at the mo. Once again I'm extremely impressed! A truly wonderful neighbour has taken pity on me and leant us their air conditioning unit - we're completely bowled over but I'm soooo grateful.

So all in all a good day and now sitting back determined to enjoy the next four weeks, I say four because I'm not under any illusions about how late little one is probably going to be.

Best wishes to everyone else

Shouldn't have mowed the lawn - expecially not with that old thing - scissors would have been easier. Now feel like I can't walk, like my pelvis is about to give way. Actually its been feeling a bit like this since Wed. At the appt one of the things they comments on about baby's "lack of progress" was that the head was still 2/5 and hadn't moved down any further, but since then I've really felt like a melon between my legs and it really hurts. I can now imagine SPD but surely that would have struck earlier so I'm assuming its the head. Since my "activities" this morning every leg movement has been painful.
Just been sprawled on the sofa thinking how lovely it would to give birth now - DH should be on his way home, weekend ahead, children happy, cottage sorted for another week, and the evening sun coming through my new voile curtains into the lounge casting such a gorgeous light. Would be perfect - except for the chickens Squarking outside cos some walkers dog has just been chasing them Grrrr..... Oh well don't suppose the little one will oblige so best go do the kids grub instead

Wills - you sound suitably chilled out. Good for you. Can't beleive you had to buy a monitor though - couldn't they lend you one? Its meant to be dark chocolate by the way - nettle and blackberry tea is also good as is Guiness!

Wills - what is your HB level?

Pupuce - 10.

Katherine - typical, can't stand dark chocolate! Yep, definitely chilled out. Don't get their worries over the 2/5 thing. Mine is in and out like a yoyo which I thought was fairly normal for a second pregnancy, in the last week (cos I've been to the hospital every day!) little one has been fully, 4/5, zero and yesterday 2/5. The chickens make your homelife sound idyllic - where's your cottage I'm coming! We could homebirth together... - I'm JOKING!!!! In the hosptial where I'm due to labour they do have double labour rooms and I don't care how close baby is - if they put me in one of those rooms with someone else - I'm off home regardless.

That's what I suspected.... 10 is actually PLENTY.... read this - you will see that you should not have a higher HB than you do now... and this is the most authoritative study on this issue :

BMJ 1995 Feb 25;310(6978):489-91

Relation between maternal haemoglobin concentration and birth weight in different ethnic groups.

Steer P, Alam MA, Wadsworth J, Welch A.

Academic Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Charing Cross and Westminster Medical School, Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, London.

OBJECTIVETo assess the relation of the lowest haemoglobin concentration in pregnancy with birth weight and the rates of low birth weight and preterm delivery in different ethnic groups. DESIGNRetrospective analysis of 153,602 pregnancies with ethnic group and birth weight recorded on a regional pregnancy database during 1988-91. The haemoglobin measurement used was the lowest recorded during pregnancy. SETTINGNorth West Thames region. SUBJECTS115,262 white women, 22,206 Indo-Pakistanis, 4570 Afro-Caribbeans, 2642 mediterraneans, 3905 black Africans, 2351 orientals, and 2666 others. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURESBirth weight and rates of low birth weight (< 2500 g) and preterm delivery (< 37 completed weeks). RESULTSMaximum mean birth weight in white women was achieved with a lowest haemoglobin concentration in pregnancy of 85-95 g/l; the lowest incidence of low birth weight and preterm labour occurred with a lowest haemoglobin of 95-105 g/l. A similar pattern occurred in all ethnic groups. CONCLUSIONS--The magnitude of the fall in haemoglobin concentration in pregnancy is related to birth weight; failure of the haemoglobin concentration to fall below 105 g/l indicates an increased risk of low birth weight and preterm delivery. This phenomenon is seen in all ethnic groups. Some ethnic groups have higher rates of low birth weight and preterm delivery than white women, and they also have higher rates of low haemoglobin concentrations. This increased rate of "anaemia," however, does not account for their higher rates of low birth weight, which occurs at all haemoglobin concentrations.

Thanks pupuce, to be honest though I'd always been told that baby takes what baby needs and therefore I wasn't worried about baby. No the reason they appear concerned about my HB levels was for me - they want me to have maximum energy levels for labour etc. Also they feel that its quite common because of blood loss during labour for a woman to become quite anaemic afterwards with a subsequent drop in energy levels. Therefore they want to readress the balance this side of labour. I'm told that I can't overdose on iron since my body will reject anything it doesn't need - is this not true?

I know that they often make a thing about anaemia from blood loss after the birth but to me it seems a bit pointless to fuss beforehand when you might not bleed heavily. They can always treat you then after all. As for not being able to overdo it I seem to remember reading somewhere that Iron poisoning from overdose is one of the leading causes of poisoning in under 6s. OK so this is kids getting hold of a bottle but even so..... The other thing is that Iron tablets always really upset my tummy. They can make you bunged up and give you cramps - much better to try to boost you iron intake in a more natural form - especially if it involves chocolate. Wills I hate dark chocolate too so tell myself that its only the cocoa solids which make it darker so I just need to eat MORE milk chocolate to compensate. This is probably rubbish but it makes me feel better.

OK so I'm now boosted on chocolate muffins, spinach (which funnily enough I've craved pretty much all the way through) and orange juice etc etc. I'm feeling a little better but to be honest I've never in my entire life felt this shattered, I'm starting to have serious qualms about where the heck I'm going to find the energy to push and push I need to because I REALLY don't want a cs.

Blimey Katheine, you still here?! Thinking of you and wills in this unbearable heat...

WWW - I think if I came early it might be the final straw for Katherine . I wouldn't worry too much Katherine - the odds are very slight .

Well went for a mile and a half walk this morning by the river - was in the shade so nice and cool but bloomin painful with this melon between my legs On the way back was chatting away to my bump threatening to start jogging if nothing happened when I realised there were two people sitting on the side of the path giving me very strange looks!

Then this afternoon I finally rearranged the kitchen. Is this nesting? Madness? Or just desperation! Still nothing happening though.

How DARE the weather man say its going to get hotter!

Wills if I can mow a lawn and shift furniture when I'm this knackered then you can push! Beleive me once you get to this point you will do anything to get it out. Its not about having the energy to push - its about not having the energy to stay pg any longer than you have to

Am I really going to have to jog tomorrow?

Wills - I am sure you are going to say :she never gives up"... and I don't

But I thought the last sentence was appropriate in your case too....

Here is some more info:

Extract from Primal Health Research newsletter, vol 10 no 3:

In many countries, the amount of red blood cells pigment (hemoglobin concentration) is routinely measured in pregnancy. There is a widespread belief that this test can effectively detect anaemia and iron deficiency. In fact, this test cannot diagnose iron deficiency because the blood volume of pregnant women is supposed to increase dramatically, so the hemoglobin concentration indicates first the degree of blood dilution, an effect of placental activity. A large British study, involving 153,602 pregnancies (17), found that the highest average birth weight was in the group of women who had a hemoglobin concentration between 8.5 and 9.5. Furthermore, when the hemoglobin concentration fails to fall below 10.5 there is an increased risk of low birthweight, preterm birth and pre-eclampsia. The regrettable consequence of routine evaluation of hemoglobin concentration is that, all over the world, millions of pregnant women are wrongly told that they are anaemic and are given ironsupplements. There is a tendency both to overlook the side effects of iron (constipation, diarrhea, heartburn, etc.) and to forget that iron inhibits the absorption of such an important growth factor as zinc (18). Furthermore, iron is an oxidative substance that can exacerbate lipid peroxidation (free radicals) and might even increase the risk of pre-eclampsia (19).

-17 - Steer P, Alam MA,Wadsworth J, Welch A. Relation between maternal haemoglobin concentration and birth weight in different ethnic groups. BMJ 1995; 310:489-91.
-18 - Valberg LS. Effects of iron, tin, and copper on zinc absorption in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 1984;40:536-41.
19 ? Rayman MP, Barlis J, et al. Abnormal iron parameters in the pregnancy syndrome preeclampsia. Am J Obstet Gynecol 2002; 187 (2): 412-8.

Katherine?! How do you do it?! I stop moving altogether from about 8 months, and there you are mowing the lawn, going for walks, rearranging things...you put me to shame!