Dec 08 Mums - Terrible twos already? Tears, tantrums, tiaras and tractors - and the rest!

[Beans33]

Hope this is better - sorry all!

That is an interesting article Beans and I think the lady commenting on it has a good point.
We've never been strict on routines and although it seemed to suit us, I regret it now. I think things may have been easier for us if we had and a more established bedtime routine would have been a start. We have started that now and when we do get him down (harder now he isn't being fed to sleep and has been poorly this week)it's amazing to have an evening together - although a short one as I am too exhausted to stay up sometimes. We've never left him to cry though and wonder if the next baby won't be as lucky as there'll be two of them to deal with!

Aubs your Nick story was hilarious! I laughed out loud at that!
Katie - well done on the giving up smoking. You should be proud of yourself.

WG - had similar experience to you with the BF. Didn't realise the last one was the last one so wasn't too sad about it. In fact it is a relief as with the morning sickness I was finding it really draining. I'm quite glad to have a little break before October.

Spot - hope lunch goes well with the book guy. DS's behaviour is becoming a bit more unpredictable and he's developed a little grumpy expression which is actually quite amusing but he was always so smiley (except at bedtime!). In fact I bumped into a colleague in tesco the other day who commented on how happy he looked and as we turned the corner he suddenly started screaming for no reason - I made a sharp exit to the checkout!

Beans you had me worried about the Apprentice. Hope Syb is right and maybe it'll start in May.

Well I need to do some tidying now - DS was difficut to entertain between 7am-12noon but I popped TV on quietly and he just drifted off on my knee. If he hadn't we'd have been off for a drive.

Hiya everyone,

Working from home again. I've finished the washing up so I thought I'd come & say hello.

Aube that is one quality celeb anecdote. What was the name of that pub you said was really good for Sunday lunch in Sussex? We are probably heading down that way camping next weekend if the weather is any good and I might check it out if we're near. spot, not sure how near it is to you but if you fancy it it'd be great to see you (although no doubt you will be inundated with London friends wanting a bit of bank holiday seaside action).

Effie your DS2 is a class act. I can just picture him in an Artful Dodger oversized hat & coat. The next step is to teach him to nick stuff with a decent resale value - I mean who wants to buy a half eaten Kinder Egg? Am around this weekend by the way if you fancy meeting up - will text.

Veggie saw on fb that DH is back. Brilliant!

There was more but just got an email to do something urgent - back later if I can.

I'm 2 pages behind and know I will have forgotten everything I wanted to say by the time I read it all so I'm gonna post as I go.

So far....
Sybs I got a bit confused and thought your DH would have to go to the pub to watch the apprentice?!?! Thought that was a bit strange for pub watching, but then some pubs showed The Debate. I love both those Smack the pony skits, I love that show. I had to stop watching while preggars with DS1 for fear of wetting myself. I'll have to see if I can find the one with the girl who gives everything to her BF.

Rubs I never see any status updates from you, have you deleted me?

Aubs I'm still giggling about the Nick thing imagine if you had taken WGs advice and showed him a bit of your bazookarz.

Right off to read more, DS1 is vying for my attention at the moment and I'm contemplating teaching him how to make me coffee with the espresso machine, but we are getting a new one delivered tomorrow, so may have to go through the whole thing again. He'd just be pressing the button when the light comes on, not actually tampering the coffee or anything, I'll wait til he's 5 for that.

Oh the ride was brilliant only took 45 mins each way. I must remind you all that I live in a flat country, I'm not sure if any of you have been here but imaging a very flat place...well it's flatter than that. Also with the bike paths it's such a doddle. It really is brilliant fun riding with the boys, they both love it, we can chat and look at stuff as we go by. DS1 is learning left from right by doing the hand signals when we turn. The farm was good though DS2 nearly walked into an electric fence and did his usual roaring baby abuse at the animals. Oh and we went to the airport to meet DH off the train. The car park cost €265!!! DH has to get his expenses in tout suit as we have a maxxed out credit card.

PD - Its called the Griffin Inn and its in a village called Fletching. It has fab food and an amazing garden. I hope you have a lovely camping trip.

Beans - Two interesting articles there. Before I had DD1 I read some of Leach's stuff and swore I would never leave DD1 to cry. I duly fed her to sleep and got up with her night after interminable night. She could not self settle and always wanted the boob. When she was 7 months I was at the end of my tether and wanted to try leaving her to cry as friends had great success with that approach. I thought long and hard about the research into the effects of cortisol on the brain of babies.

Basically Leach is saying that for a baby it is extremely stressful not having your cries attended to, so your body releases cortisol and that impairs brain development. I am sure it is a stressful experience, but is two or three nights of 20 minutes crying really going to do lasting damage?

Think how often we are in situations where we cannot immediately attend to cries. From the day she was born I regularly drove DD1 to Devon in the car and sometimes she screamed and it was a long way to the next service station, another time she had to have a scan on her heart and was held down screaming and I wasn't allowed to pick her up. IMO it is normal in every baby's life to experience instance where their mother does not attend to them straight away. I figure that infrequent instances are fine as long as the baby is usually treated with love, care and attention. Therefore I decided to leave DD1 to cry and she was sorted in two nights. She went from the incredible not settling baby to a baby who could get herself off to sleep and then slept through the night because when she momentarily woke up she knew how to self settle. She was happier and so was I and I am sure that it therefore actually benefitted her. It almost felt like I gave her the gift of a good night's sleep.

I don't think you were on the thread when DD2 got to 5.5 months and had never slept for more than 4 hours in a row. I hired a sleep trainer and after two nights she slept through the night and has done ever since. So to summarize I actually think there is a place for controlled crying as long as it is not done on a newborn and is not persevered with if the baby does not train within a few nights.

Phew, that was an essay, sorry.

Hi all, am feeling very pleased with myself as I have managed to do a solid three hours work today whilst DD was at Childminders. She was not happy about me leaving her and screamed for 1/2 an hour but then sort of settled down. She won't eat or play whilst she's there unless I am there too, but I am sure if I persevere she will learn to enjoy it more.
Day 4 of non-smoking and I am feeling very positive. I have worked out that I am saving myself about £180 a month, therefore £2,200 a year , that could be a very nice holiday!
She's awake, gotta go

Oh my gosh, Veggie - so glad your DH is back - that's amazing - hurray!

Saw Legally Blonde last night - it was hilarious! Really enjoyed it and would recommend it if anyone's considering going. There were 9 of us in our group of girlies watching it and 5 of us pregnant - 3 of us really very pregnant! Brilliant! such happy times!

Katie - I don't know if this helps, but when I first started leaving DD with her nanny, she was miserable. I felt wracked with guilt every time I left for work - it was quite distressing. BUT she now loves it and this morning when I left, she was playing with Baby Beryl happily and waved at me and said "byebye" without a second thought! We've got Mr & Mrs Beryl coming for dinner tonight... Can't believe quite that we've invited them over, but figure we might as well. Things much better since bubonic plague-gate. DH's email clearly did a world of good and they've completely butted out of DD's health. Phew!

just read those articles, beans, and have to agree with our aubs. you all know the hell we went through, and how at 9 months with millpond effectively holding our hands, we did cc. it wasn't fun for anyone, but it has helped ENORMOUSLY. we've slightly gone back as now madam will scream until i go in and rub her back and stay in her room until she is asleep, otherwise the screaming begins - i still haven't cracked getting her to sleep in her cot during hte day - she is happy to be lulled to sleep in the car/buggy, but to consciously go to sleep in the cot seems beyond her. or rather, beyond me putting up with the screaming to teach her to do so. i wish i had, though. i might have to take 2 weeks and really go for it.

katie -way, hey - you are doing so well! my dad gave up after 50 odd years, 2 years ago. it was because i was pregnant (pre miscarriage) and he realised he wanted to be around to see his grandchild. i am so so so proud of him - i know it is the hardest thing to do, involving changing your life, your habits, your self-image. keep going, lady - you are doing a wonderful wonderful thing.

beans - after all that you really enjoyed it? great!

and having said all that about napping - am off to walk madam in the buggy till she sleeps - tried a cot nap and endured 20 mins of screaming until i realised she'd pooed herself and she started laughing at me as i changed her. ugh ugh ugh. must. be. TOUGHER with her.

ps - rubs, am i posting enough???

Just a quickie to say that I agree with Zoe Williams that there's often something about the tone of the 'advice' that's rather bullying (whichever side of the fence they occupy), and it brings me out in hives because they prey on women at a very vulnerable time in their lives. I can only say I am somewhere between the two schools of thought, but that was only because my particular baby enabled me to be, iyswim, and was an easy sleeper. Might have to have a completely different approach next time - so much depends on the baby and there's no telling how they will react. I totally see what Aubi is saying about 'teaching' the baby to sleep, and looking as it in terms of giving the baby a particular skill. Thats sounds right to me. You see poor parents nearly going under with the lack of sleep and all these books and people telling them that they SHOULD do, and I just think - you poor buggers, try anything you can to get through, and whatever the thing is that enables you all to get the most sleep - THAT's the thing to do and bugger all these guilt merchants.

And Aubs - I cross-posted.

I have to say, I completely agree with you. Clearly it's down to the individual what they decide to do, but you can't always immediately go to a baby when it's crying and it's not going to kill them to wait 5-10 mins. Might not be nice, but they'll get through it. I think there is definitely room for controlled crying and I think you make a valid point on the whole giving her the gift of a good night's sleep.

It is such an emotive subject and ultimately whatever one person thinks is right for their baby, someone else will think something different. I think you just have to do what works best for you. We were incredibly lucky that DD was quite a good sleeper from about 4 months. But if she hadn't been I would have had no qualms about practicing some controlled crying. Although it would have been hard. And agree, you can't really do it on newborns.

Hope that makes sense!

Got quite a bit to catch up on so will be back later but , Beans, that you are having the Beryl Barbaras over tonight!

Hang on, Rubes, now I come to think of it I don't see any status updates from you either! I think you may have deleted me as well! I think you have been a bit trigger happy with that delete button, lady

PS I also found Rachel Waddilove's book really good as it's quite relaxed and doesn't have the whole Gina Ford thing about no eye contact etc. Although do think a lot of GF can be manipulated in press to make it look worse than it is and she does speak some sense, amongst the proscriptive stuff.

RW was much more about the parent and had a flexible routine, which suited me brilliantly. Although I rather sadly carried it around with me constantly for about 4 months! But I guess it worked in the end! And I used to keep a diary of everything DD did and note of which boob I'd used to feed her last etc. I'm about to plunge back into that whole world again. Treat!

Sorry I haven't read the articles it's taken me forever to catch up with you lot, don't think I can ignore my children any longer. But will just say I have looked into the cortisol stuff for my own parentu stuff and for work as obviously have had to deal with small babies going through big traumas therefore lots of crying. Now as far as I have seen from the research the extended crying thing was only for up to 3 month olds after then the cortisol receptors have matured enough to deal with the flow of cortisol released when the baby is stressed. Also if the baby is crying but the parent is present the cortisol is not so much of a problem but again this is only up to 3 months that's it's a problem full stop. Am I making sense. Basically no problem for you Aubs as this was all 7 months wasn't it?

Oh and FWIW with both boys we have worked by the principle that we go to them when they cry out for us following the theory that they will learn to call for us only when they need us because they know we will come so don't have to just cry for the heck of it. DS1 really is very non attention seeking never tantrums whinges, basically proves that theory. DS2 disproves it beyond all possible reckoning. So end of the day, they are how they are, just respond the best you can to keep everyone sane and fairly well slept!

Hear hear Veggie - every child is different, even if brought up in same way, so you can't apply one theory to all of them. Just as every adult is. Ho hum.

I now need an apple. Off I go.

FWIW, my tuppenceworth on the parenting thing is that if you are basically reasonably well balanced caring parent you are not going to go too far wrong - there can't possibly be one way of bringing up a baby and when it comes to personality, at least you're related to your baby, so you might have an inkling about where its coming from and what might help.

When you read these articles taking into account all the nuances, they're not actually advocating radically different things - Penelope Leach doesn't actually say you should never leave a baby to cry, just that you shouldn't do it regularly for long periods of time. And I'm sure GF doesn't say leave your baby screaming its head off for hours on end. I suppose we took a more PL than GF line with ours (and PL certainly writes much better), but actually by the time we got to DS we were just making it up as we went along anyway.

Anway - totally agree with ZW and our own wise LadyT, its actually the judgy tone that's the problem.

WG - Glad you are taking the end of BF well. I was flummoxed and a bit upset when DD (and later DS) both just decided they didn't fancy it anymore, would have liked it a bit less sudden!

Aubi that story of the encounter with "Nick" is just hilarious!

Rubes - I like your pragmatic take on facebook! Its all a bit stalkerish otherwise. I don't think we have been facebook friends, so I won't be offended

katie - talking of facebook stalking, I think we know someone in common. Again, I don't think we're FB friends, but I "know" who you are from the page and I think we both know LK? I used to know her from the gym, but she would be horrified at the sight of me now...And that sounds like you are going great guns on the non-smoking

Ooh, Invis, LK who's just had a baby? If so, I was in halls at Uni with her, haven't seen her for years now though. She was certainly no gym buddy when I knew her [bitchy emoticon], actually we were great friends for a couple of years but just sort of lost touch.

Yup, that's the one. I met her when she was working as a trainer at the gym near my work - I guess people change! I saw her for lunch just before she had her baby, but not since.

Well I'm just back from an appointment with the elective c-section hating looks like a man midwife. It's really hit or miss down there. I wasn't spose to have an appointment again yet (as I've had a child before) but I really wanted that form signed to get my £190 which I'm eligible to apply for now.
She hadn't seen me since about 12 weeks so gave me the obligitory grilling as only she could about why I had a section for number one. Then I asked to be weighed (to compare to my at home scales ] and it blatenly said xxkg but she said no I think that was more like xx - (1kg more - cow) Of course she had run out of the forms I wanted and then made a point of saying you can't have it until you are 25 PLUS weeks (which I am on Sat except M/W appointments are only available once a week) so now she wants me to wait until my routine 28 week appointment Oh well.

I ordered ds's duvet set yesterday and it arrived here in exactly 22 hours!! I cannot praise that company (That cute age) enough! brilliant service.

Facebook - oh lordy lord! Veg and Lady you are both still on there!!! I never update that status thing - but I will make an effort just so you can all see you're still there!!!
Invis - are you even on FB? If so, you've neever been on mine (unless I didn't know who you were) but i would love it if you can add me if you are! I'll check on the MN FB group and see who's who in a second.

Right this has taken forever to write as I've typed one handed while shoveling chicken curry and mash down ds followed by a yoghurt! I'm sure there was loads more I was going to write.

Veg glad dh is home [thumbs up emoticon]

Oh yes - WG you are doing well - almost ready to come off the shortlist for axing off my FB (cheeky bugger!)

oh yes - that article - meant to say I totally agree with what Aubi said......

Rubena - I'll send a friend request in a mo. Truth is I don't go on there that much and I think I joined the FB rather late, so I think I am FB only with a bit of a random selection of people from here!

Sorry the midwife was being a cow - its all a bit unnecessary.

Oh my gosh - I've just confirmed you!! YOU were one I axed I didn't know that was YOU!! (sorry)

Now I am completely confused! Anyway, I think my (alter)ego can cope...

Just popping on with a small add.

For sale - one 3 year old girl, answers to the name of Matilda. Comes with a free bed guard

God, I am soooooooooooooooooo challenged. My dear sweet DD2 has turned into a horror. They all have their moments don't they? I never felt remotely annoyed by DD2 until she was 2, but I've made up for it today. She's so contrary.

Time for a long swim methinks. And a big drink. I've eaten nearly a pound of cheese on and off today, so I'd better swim a long way to atone. Perhaps the Channel would be enough?!

Back later.

Doh! A small ad. My poor brain.