June 2008: New Year, new thread, new names, new words, new goals, but no resolutions!

[abdnhikinginawinterwonderland]

New thread since the last one's at 997 posts...

Question for all the Londoners - what's your top tips on places to visit with toddlers? We're thinking of the Aquarium maybe but open to other suggestions!

I took Luke to the Aquarium and he loved it both times - do go - fecking expensive though about £19 each!! Also been wanting to take Luke to the natural history museum too.

Just back from seeing Annabel - 8 days old - she is duper gorgeous and Puree is feeling much better and waking around like billy o! Cecily adores her little sis - of they are so cute! had a long hold but didn't feel too funny about it surprisingly.

Quick post as another night from hell so need a lie down.

If you travel by train look out for 2 4 1 vouchers at the station you start from. The Aquarium is included as is London Zoo which is fab too.

I need some help and advice about Preschools please. I have finally got around to looking into the local ones, but I don't feel like I know what I am doing. Deb, Sponge anyone else with a background in the area:
-Is a preschool and a nursery school the same thing?

• At what age is it normal to start preschool? Of the two closest to us one says 2 and the other says 2.5. The one that says 2 though says that they like the child to have started potty training by then. I am not sure that P will be ready for this by the summer. Potty training aside, if I felt that overall P wasn't ready at two years, is it acceptable to hold him back for a few months?

-I have had a look at the Ofsted reports for each. One is almost all outstanding, the other is mostly satisfactory. How much attention should I pay to this?

• The satisfactory one is very close to us, and has links with the primary school that is 200 yards from our house, so it would be more convenient. The outstanding one is 15 mins walk , so still convenient, but not in the direction of the school.

-The outstanding one is Montessori. Should this impress me at all, or is it just for the offspring of parents who think they have a child genius? It offers French lessons. Seems like a bit of overkill for a child who can currently only say "yes", "no" and "woof"? -I am arranging appointments to visit both of them. What should I be looking for and asking. Thanks!

Sponge, I'm not wishing to be rude, but having visited your house, those photos look like a different house . It's not just a case of the lounge being a toy free zone (where did you stash them, the car)? The room proportions look really different. They have made your quite square kitchen you much longer. Moral of the story: estate agents should never be trusted. .

OMG, preschool? Argh, that hadn't crossed my mind. I don't think we have them here. Is that like when your child is 3 they start going to school in the mornings? Iestyn's nursery do government stuff (sounds v. communist, that!) when they get a bit older.
Don't know much about Montessori (apart from an anecdote - one of DH's colleagues years ago was discussing getting his kids into school (I think private?), and there was an option of taking an exam - he laughed v. loudly (as he does) and said 'but they went Montessori, they can't read and write!'). I also had a little moment where I thought 'French? How lucky P is, to get to learn a major European language at such an early age. I wish Iestyn could have that.' Duh, duh, DUH!
I came on here to post something specific but now I can't remember what it was. Might go home now - not getting much done any more. Did finish a big funding bid and submitted it so I suppose I did ok.

Spider Preschools in my area take children from 2 1/2 which is pretty standard. If you wanted to wait he will not lose out at all. As preschools are funded from the term after children are 3 many start then.
I owuld find out how they organise their day. One preschool near me is very structured which worked very well for my dd's but I know some kids, mostly boys, struggled with it. Another near me is mainly based on free play which like the other one suits some kids but not all. Also many children stay at the structered preschool until they are ready to start reception class at school where as the other preschool encourages the parents to send the children to school nursery when they are old enough.
The preschool the dd's went to didn't fair as well as they hoped in the ofstead report because their paper work wasn't up to date but they were very happy there.

Spider the potty-training thing is such a pile of poo imo. It's impossible to predict when a child will be potty trained, and silly to put pressure on the parents and the child for the sake of a nursery policy. I'd ask what they do when the child forgets that they've been potty trained. Make sure they can reassure you that they will change the nappy, not phone the parents and tell them to come in to change it (I'm not kidding, I've known this to happen), or leave the child in a dirty nappy all day (ditto).

Personally, I quite like Montessori but I think a lot of its techniques have now been incorporated into mainstream. Unless it's very hardcore Montessori.

Goddess I'm a governor at the children's school so try to keep my eye on things that way. But as far as the individual children are concerned, I've v rarely gone in to speak to their teacher about anything. I've done it a couple of times this year and been very glad when I have. It won't work at secondary school, though. The school is something like 10-form entry, which terrifies me, so just too big for that sort of personal involvement. It's a v good school but the size really puts me off. If we opt for private schools DH will be working until he's 150 though!

Neenz is your DH thinking of the schools round my way, then?

I was in town today with Thea, and she had a lovely time, but on the train coming home she totally lost it. She wasn't cranky or anything, I think she was in pain. She was completely hysterical, thrashing around, arching her back. It was so awful for her and upsetting for me as well. I don't think the other passengers liked it much either but I was careful not to make eye contact.

Going I was going to post something like that about nurseries!

I wouldn't pay much attention to Ofsted for nurseries. So much of the marking is based on compliance rather than anything "real". I'd pay much more attention to my own gut feeling, how pleasant the environment is, what the staff are like and so on. I'd pay attention to the food as well. And see how many v young girls are working there, and what the turnover is like.

Domestic, no worries, but yes do ask next time - any excuse to visit Surbiton .

Spider, pmsl at the comments about the house - but you're absolutely right! The rooms look much bigger than they actually are - especially the kitchen!! Hope people aren't too disappointed when they view it .

As for schools, I'm not an expert on pre-schools but my understanding is they normally start after their 3rd birthday, so A will be starting in September 2011. He will get 15 hrs pw paid for by the Government. Pre-schools are similiar to nurseries, and most working mothers keep their children in nursery because pre-schools only do morning or afternoon sessions and don't provide lunch or let children stay all day. So at A's nursery he will move into the pre-school setting at 3.

Lol at "he went to a Montessori so he can't read or write"! I think Montessori schools learn by play and put much less emphasis on formal education - whether you think this is a "good thing" or not is entirely personal preference. I was speaking to a friend yesterday who was waxing lyrical about a potential pre-school setting where they sit down and write. She seemd to think this was great - personally I was horrified. One of the things I love about our local school here is they have a huge emphasis on learning through play in the early years - with two boys that is so important. Early pressure to sit still and do "boring work" can turn kids (esp boys) off school for life IME.

As for satisfactory vs outstanding - my thought would be to go for the outstanding one. Quite happy to come and visit them with you though - I'm very nosey! Or you can email me the OFSTED reports. They are only one part of the picture, but I would be happier with good rather than satisfactory personally.

Learning French is, I think, a good thing - we leave language learning far too late in this country and put our children at a massive disadvantage compared to their continental peers.

What should you be looking for? Hmm, are the children happy and engaged in their play, are there plenty of activites available for them and are they encouraged to "free flow" (move independently from one activity to the next), are the nursery workers engaging with the children and developing their play, is children's work displayed and celebrated, do they have plenty of access to the outdoors. I'll see if I can think of anything else.

It might be worth starting a thread on education here and asking mums/teachers who've had more experience of this too.

Oh and spider, you live in a town like me where everyone thinks their child is a genius!

Domestic, I've heard the Science Museum is supposed to be amazing!

Oh and here's wiki's take on Montessori for spider and essie .

Quick hello from me, just woken up so taking the opportunity before Henry wakes up to say hi.
I'm pleased with myself today as I managed to get us all to Tiny Talk this morning with no major traumas, popped into town on the way back and discovered that my double buggy doesn't go through the door of the post office, I don't know how disabled people would get in, luckily there is a post office here in the village so it's not one I rely on. The excitement all wore J out so he is tucked up in his cot.

I'm with Essie on feeling very about the pre school business, when do we have to put their names down for nursery places and schools?

I was going to say the same thing as going (does that make sense) about the 2 for 1 vouchers if you get the train, my friends were telling me about them the other week.

Sponge - your house is very tidy! Have you had any viewings yet? I hated the whole house selling and buying thing, we lost a few houses we'd set our hearts on, I'm glad now as we ended up in one much nicer.

Our local primary school is good but I'm not so sure about the secondary. I think once he starts and has a group of friends where they end up going will have a big influence on my decision. I went through schools with the same group of friends and I think that has a big influence on how well you do. My sister however moved house when she was 10 then when she was 13 so pretty much as soon as she had settled and made friends had to start again. She didn't settle in at the school she ended up at and refused to go. Now she is 18 and about to drop out of college so even though she is very clever she has no qualifications at all.

I keep hearing about One born every minute but as our aerial has decided it only picks up BBC now I haven't seen it. It's become far more urgent that DH sorts out the aerial as Cbeebies has started to go

Did any of you get 12 month developmental checks by the health visitor? When she came out last week to see H I asked her when they would next see J as the last time they came to see him (about 4 months) she said she would be back when he was a year old and I've never heard anything from them. She said "Oh, he should have had a developmental check at 12 months" so she is going to do it when she comes for H's 6 week visit, only 7 months late!

I'd better go and do something more productive.

x-posted with Rolf and going on nurseries!

X posted with loads of people there!

Have just read back and missed Amber's post completely - so glad to here that puree is doing well and that you enjoyed your visit .

ktpie forgot to say to spider (who has seen my house covered in plastic!), the only reason the house is so tidy is that the photographer came round while A was in bed and I picked up all the toys in the lounge and chucked them behind the sofa - if the photographer had panned round to the left you would be able to see a floor to ceiling stack of crap!!

When you sign up for pre-schools is entirely dependant on the school - our local pre-school is so popular that M was signed up when he was two weeks old !

We only get 8 mth developmental checks round here, but they are talking about bringing back the 2 year check as alot of SN are being missed and not picked up until kids are at school which is not good.

Marking spot- e starts pre school
in September but only 2 mornings a week so basically it's posh playgroup and sadly unlike it's brother school doesn't qualify for vouchers.

Amber lovely to hear purée news but sorry you are poorly.

Rolf- sympathies as have had that a few times and there is nothing you can do.

Home alone til monday as dh away with friends skiing and e started another cold so may only lurk if frantic.

Oh blimey I have had a horrendous afternoon. I very very stupidly did a POAS which obviously came out BFN. I know it's too early but all my 'trying to be neutral' went flying out the window and all my actual surpressed feelings came rushing out. I have had feck all sleep which also made things much worse. .

Sponge excellent post and you're well informed. I must stress I wasn't dissing Montessori or anything - I actually think it's great and that they start way too soon with formal stuff. (I don't think DH's colleague actually was either - he was not impressed at the thought of an exam for a little one.) DH has another colleague who lives in Streatham and refused to do the private school thing (too lefty) despite the state schools being nothing special. Her son was interviewed for Cambridge last month. Smug...and laughing all the way to the bank compared to the others paying private fees. (One of them has 10 children all privately educated! )

Also was being flippant about languages - although I do seriously think things like 'I wish Iestyn could learn a major european language asap' without thinking that he will - it will be English!! But I'd love him to have a third language - mainly because he will learn English extremely swiftly in due course. I have lots of experience of teaching language to people (adults), and being bilingual can make it much easier. But it's not a rule - my brother and I pick up languages quickly (but in an odd way - not book-learning) but my sister doesn't - she's just differently inclined. It does give you an advantage in some things, but contrary to what people say, it doesn't necessarily make you clever. (Obviously it has in my case ) I know some really thick bilingual people. But I would stress that if you can start exposing P to another language now, do it. Whether he's speaking or not. Iestyn doesn't speak much more than P really, but he will and he'll eventually have 2 languages.

Anyhoo, sorry, soapbox moment but I do have a lot of information and boring facts about bilingualism!!

poppy, hope your weekend ok without dh - fingers crossed E's a good girl .

Amber, sorry to hear you've had such a bad afternoon - as you know it is far far too early to get a BFP girl. Try to resist doing anymore til next week .

Essie, I wasn't thinking you were dissing Montessori - I don't know enough about them one way or t'other tbh. But I'd be interested in seeing how they work.

at TEN children through private school! What did he do for a living?! I went to private school for two years, left and finished my education at state school and got better grades in my GCSEs/A levels than all my private school mates! The family environment matters far more than how much you pay for your education - generally.

I really really wish I had learnt a 2nd language at uni - I was very good at languages but knew they were hard A levels so jacked them in for something easier .

Oh and can anyone help with this?

Ooh, great pre-school chat. I think here you can pay for sessions from 2yo (£12 a session iirc) and then at 3 you get five sessions funded by the govt. They all take place at the nursery attached to the primary school. I think you do have to put your name down for nursery but not for school itself - they just choose based on catchment area for proper school. I think most people choose the pre-school attached to the school they want their DCs to go to. I think it is a lot different in ther SE or in big cities though wrt choice and differences in schools. They are all much the same round here.

I would love the DTs (and me) to be bilingual. I totally agree with exposing them to foreign languages from an early age but I wonder how useful it would be when we don't speak any foreign languages at home. I mean, unless they do French classes continually it will be a bit of a waste to do a few at 2yo iyswim. There was an item about it on FiveLive this morning, a French class for babies/toddlers from 6mo, which was very interesting and I think the group is a great idea and sounded like lots of fun. But the reporter said some mums go to the group 'to give their kids an "edge", because that is what we are all looking for these days' . Mmm, no, some people just want their kids to have fun and learn at their own pace!

Rolf, yes he likes the schools round your way, you might have heard of the one with initials MT . 10-form entry! That is crazy and yes quite scary. We had 3-form entry at my high school. I feel so lucky that both the schools in Formby have a great reputation. How awful for Thea, poor little thing.

Sponge, the nursery situation sounds very strange, and annoying that you haven't got the full info yet. I really hope it isn't as bad as you think and you get some answers soon to put your mind at ease.

ktpie, we get an 8m check and a 2y check here. No 12m one.

LOL Sponge, same job as my DH. But he's clearly better at it.
Actually it's cause&effect - he's one of the highest earners in the firm, but then he's also one of the hardest workers and has to be - you would have to, with 10 kids. And, all 10 were educated privately from prep school up - and the prep school gave them the 10th place free. That's the truth.

Amber I x-posted. Still early days, probably too early? But step away from those tests.

Lively thread you started there, Sponge! I won't post on it because the BLW brigade will have a go.
Iestyn was spoon fed. Uses cutlery nicely now, but not consistently. He will sometimes use his hands instead - and sometimes he'll use his hands to get the food on the fork . Not sure if that's good or bad! If he's hungry and needs the speed, he asks me to spoon feed!
Mind you, he doesn't like stickiness on his hands much, and so wouldn't dive in. (Like Sybil's DS??)
BTW, this isn't 'my kid is doing really well'. He spits entire mouthfuls out, throws cutlery, bowls and food if he's not interested; has high chair tantrums and likes nothing more than seeing a pea/potato/baked bean/bread making contact with another human being's face or hair. I was trying to say that the cutlery use is disguising something else (his fear of stickiness).

Amber I totally get how you are feeling - I always used to test too early and even though you know it can't tell you anything it is so depressing when it is bfn. You must try to put it out of your mind until Monday. Not long to go now. Hope you have some lovely things planned for the weekend.

The DTs use a spoon to eat unless it's toast etc, but I don't think there is anything wrong with A using his hands. If that is the way he wants to eat, so what. When he is 5 and can understand and follow proper instructions then yes I think he should use cutlery then but they are still just babies atm. It seems to me that nurseries try to enforce a one size fits all policy and I suppose with so many kids to control it is understandable but you'd think they would pick their battles. I was quite shocked to hear that my SIL's nursery refuse to feed babies after they are 12mo - they have to feed themselves. For £40 a day I would expect someone to feed my child if they needed it! They do learn to feed themselves bloody quickly though don't they.

Just a quickie here, couldn't resist with all the pre school talk. I'm hoping that we're back in the UK this summer so that Ethan can start some sort of pre school in September. Stefan went 2 mornings a week at age 2.5, then moved into Nursery at the primary school at 3.5 - where I was his teacherSpider I would agree with going with your gut feeling - are the children happy, what's the outdoor space like?Do you warm to the adults there? There shouldn't be any sitting down reading/writing rubbish at this age - all of the learning should be achieved through play. Is there a Nursery class at the local primary school?

Tomorrow's Nigel's Birthday and another viewing and then another on Tuesday - keep your fingers crossed for me, our house isn't as tidy as Sponge's!!

Sponge posted on your thread.

Amber sorry you had a bad afternoon. Not long now till Monday.

Thanks everyone for all the great preschool advice. Lots for me to think about. I will re-read in the morning when I am feeling a bit fresher. Sponge and anyone else who is interested, here are the links to the info:

Here is the closer place option1 and the Ofstedoption1

Here is the further away place option2 and the Ofstedoption2

Although option 2 looks better, option 1 has the advantage of being associated with the infant school and our toddler group, so DS should start to develop a peer group that he can progress into school with.

It's late. Night all.