Dec 08 mums - embuggerance to it all - sleep or no sleep we love our babes

[waitinggirl]

i hope people don't mind, i took the bull by the horns and did it. title a bit naff, but more important the thread exists rather than search for a better title. hope i haven't stolen anyone's thunder...

Blimey. I stay off the thread for a few days and come back and find out everyone's been struggling with sleep/work/health etc . All I can say to those of you with sleep issues is that it WILL get better, eventually. Do whatever it takes to get some sanity-restoring sleep though. (At one point with DD2 we were doing shifts staying at my Mum's flat periodically to catch up on undisturbed zzzz's.)

Please remember to exact revenge when your LO's are 15/16. I plan to vacuum outside DD1's bedroom door at 5:30am after she's been to her school prom . (Well the thought kept me going through some pretty grim times.)

arti - please please please be kinder to yourself re the controlled crying. Everyone on here knows what a good mum you are. You NEED sleep though. It's like water, or food, I think. You CAN'T exist without it. You're not being heartless, you're doing the best for your family, and everyone knows what a tough decision it is.

Quick "me" update - I didn't get one of the jobs, I came second. However the CEO recommended me for another job and the MD of another company has now asked for my CV. All this pales into insignificance though as I'm waiting to hear about another one - they said I would have news by Tuesday morning first thing... aaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh.

Took DD1 to her school induction today >proud mum emoticon

Hello
Just a quickie...
Sorry WG and Spot and MOM for your tiring non-napping, multi-waking babies . Big hugs all round and more sympathy for the sponge...
Lal - lovely to hear from you again.
Verso - yikes! All your job excitment...I really hope it turns out well for you - did you decide that your dh will stay at home?

well we had 2 minor miracles here...

1. dh and I had sex last night and it didn't hurt!

and 2. when Phoebe woke up at 9pm I said to dh "please can you try to settle her because I'm SURE she can't be hungry" - I gritted my teeth through 10 mins of screaming coming from upstairs then 5 mins of whimpering, then she was back asleep! That's the first time she's ever gone back to sleep in the night without a feed . She woke again at 10.30, 12.30 2.30 and 5 - and I fed her at all those times because I don't want to ask dh to settle her when he's at work the next day, but it has given me some hope about tackling it properly in the summer hols, and that it might actually work! So dh was in my good books after settling her - hence minor miracle no.1! anyway- big bang is about to start on E4 then I'm off to bed.

night night xxx

oh and I discovered today that nasty Mr agression-in-the-playground had only been released from prison the day before - he'd been in for violence!

Bloody hell Trace!!!! He could have done you!!!! Did that freak you out a bit. You stood up to a proper crim!

Oh I'm also so sorry I've freaked you all out about the crying before 3 months. It does not include crying when in the presence of parents, and not just cuddling but in the smellable vicinity, yes as long as they can smell you it's good. The study has led to changes to NICU care, where possible they have the parent as close to the baby as can be, and if it's safe even holding as much as possible (it's also about bonding etc). Think about it, some sick and congenitally unwell babies cry almost constantly and are often fine. I think it was more about those sad little Romania orphan babies. They now don't recommend CC before 3months, I think it was Mom saying they do it in Canada from 4 months which sounds about right. I hope that clears it up. Unfortunately when they publish these findings in non medical media they don't give all the facts and like to make it sound more sensational than it seems. There is a book called 'Why love matters' which goes into the cortisol thing but also how love, touch and all those things that go on between mothers and babies helps develop a babies brain. It's quite good and more scientific than the name suggets, there is one chapter which is a bit rough, about sending children to nursery but apart from that it basically says the average caring mother will not harm her babies development. I think Arti's friends where very heartless to say what they said, and also very ill informed.

Juat quickly popping on!!

Trace!!! Gosh that is really scary!!

WG Hope you have a lovely time at your Dads. Hope the sleep improves.

I have a question to ask. I have seen a gorgeous cross stitch birth sampler. I want to stitch for a MN friend who I have met once and we are meeting again soon. But I don't want to come across as some wierdo!! So should I or not?

Hope you all get plenty of sleep tonight.

Hi everyone, I?ve had a fun, but exhausting, day today. I babysat for my goddaughter (20 months), so had a taster of what its like for all of you who have more than one child ? I do think you are all amazing to do it 24/7 ? just 5 hours today has wiped me out! My goddaughter went for a nap without complaint this afternoon, was fast asleep within 5 minutes and I had to wake her after 2 hours ? what an angel! Gives me hope for DD yet, especially as my goddaughter had the same nap aversion at about 6 months, but settled back into it by 7 months ? only one more month to go!

Verso what a shame about missing out on the job, but great news to be recommended for the other position. On the other job, did they mean this Tuesday past, or the one coming? I hope the news is good and have my fingers crossed for you

WG you poor thing, I do feel for you. When DD had a cold it was the only time that I really wished I was back at work and someone else was looking after her as it was so hard. Have a great time in Portugal, from what you?ve said previously about your Dad and his ladyfriend, I?m sure they?ll want to help out with DD as much as possible, so I hope you come back refreshed. Is your DH going too, or will he still be working hard back here?

PMK that wedge thingy looks good, do you still use it for your DS? The baby in the picture looks very young, is it big enough for babies our age? I think it will be well worth investing in if DD doesn?t learn to roll back again soon - the last 3 nights I?ve been up 4, 5 and then (just!) 3 times to roll her onto her back again, not fun!

I was reading earlier, with DD sat on my knee (the computer screen seems to be just as mesmerising to her as the TV ) and she found your post Effie very amusing and was chuckling away at it . She wouldn?t let me in the joke though

Yay and a little bit of Daisy?s model baby!

Arti I think you have made a good decision (and a brave one, I know I?d be dithering too), as in order to be a good mum sometimes you have to put yourself first. FWIW my Mum left me to cry, as long as I was fed, clean and warm (I doubt CC existing then). I can?t remember it and I think I?m a fairly well adjusted person now (others are likely to beg to differ, but no-one has yet told me to my face, so I can?t be that bad ), so it can?t be that damaging

JJ my DD is petite too, not like those big, strong boys of Effie?s and Daisy?s ? she only just past a stone (14lb 4) this week, bless her. She?s stuck rigidly to that 9th centile since the day she was born (6lb 7 then). She?s 6 months old next Monday, so next week I?m going to get her weighed and measured too, to celebrate her half birthday

I hope you get positive news Sybil, both from work and from your GP when you finally get an appointment. Great to hear how well M is doing

Lal at your DS! I hope he gets better soon, poor little man

Trace hurrah for your miracles, but for that poor man?s family, I do hope they don?t see the worst of him

DH and I also tried to have sex last night (have attempted it a few times now), but yet again failed to get anywhere. I?m starting to think that my whole fanjo got sewn up and not just the tear . Can I ask those who are/have BF ? did your libido (and ability) come back once you stopped BF? I?m currently blaming the fact that I?m sick of my boobs being touched on the inability or desire to have sex, and DH is being very understanding, but if it doesn?t reappear once I stop BF then we may need some help

OK, bedtime now ? night night everyone x

Six months ago to the minute (10.39) I let out a loud scream and promptly met DD2!

Evening all, we had a lovely day today with dd's godmother and the miracle baby M - who is now off all medications, and just like any other baby who hasn't had open heart surgery - hung out in Coram's Fields where there was a big primary school country dancing fest going on, so lots of dancing with the girls, lots of giggles. And dd was a charmer on the train, smiling at all comers and cooing and generally being adorable. Thank god she saved the poonami til we got home, that wouldn't have made us any friends!

WG lovely girl, sponge/basket/whatever, we're all here for you. And there's your dad's wonderful ladyfriend out in Portugal, she'll be brilliant. Hope you get to have a really lovely relaxing break.

spot/arti re the research veggie mentioned, it's very very different if a baby's crying but you're holding them and cuddling them or just in the room with them - they know you're there but can't work out how to calm themselves down. As veggie said that's a totally different thing to being left on their own without anyone there. And all of us have had to step out of the room for a while if we can't cope with crying, but as a one off it doesn't do any harm, only if there's a repeated pattern of being left alone. Which is so not what any of us has been doing - the fact that we find it so hard to listen to our babies crying, and feel we have to go in to them, shows that.

lal eek to the car journey... whereabouts are you going to in France, we're visiting friends in the Languedoc in Sept and driving down too - v nervous! Novel - hmmm... Kathy Reichs I'm afraid. Am a sucker for detective novels.

sybil lovely to see you. Grizzling is all fine, going by the sleep threads there are just a lot of babies that wind down before sleeping with a bit of a whinge. DD will lie down and flip onto her front then grumble while rubbing her face back and forth in the mattress?? before finally nodding off. It has taken me a long time to learn that if I dash up in the first few minutes, it just prolongs the process, but if we let her get it out of her system she sleeps much better - it's all part of learning to get themselves to sleep without needing us there.

verso v exciting about the possible jobs - will keep the fingers crossed. It's great that they're after you for a different role, you must have made a brilliant impression

trace hurrah for news no. 1! We too managed finally to get out of the desert last week with the aid of (ahem) plenty of lube. Was a miracle to remember that yes, it is actually quite good fun! And great that P settled for her daddy as well. No more tackling scary violent people please, we don't want you to be a statistic of how good samaritans get biffed on the nose.

kayz - well, cross stitch is all very well but not when you've got a dodgy wrist Seriously, I'm sure that would be really sweet, are you in touch with this friend a lot?

ZJ all I can say re the sex thing is http://www.boots.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryParentId=3887&storeId=10052&c ategoryId=4134&catalogId=11051&langId=-1 these I'm sure that otherwise the BFing is still acting as a contraceptive.. Yeah, you're 98% protected from pregnancy but that's because you're crisp packety and not shagging full stop. Boooo.

Goodnight all, hugs to you and kisses to your lovely babies

ZJ I'm officially fertile again but still not much on the desire front. Poor DH I think he's gonna explode, it slowly come back last time and was more to do with getting more regular sleep than when I stopped BF, though I do agree having to be so close to them so much doesn't help intimacy, though I would imagine that's the same for the FF mums too.

Verso I meant to say last post that the person who got the job must have been amazing to have beaten you, which Tuesday do you find out.

Where is Tilly?

Lal that is very annoying you had to give up your job due to conflict of interest, there was something else I was going to say to you but can't remember.

Anyway must go to bed have been getting to bed too late recently and getting too grumpy in the mornings.

Quick one from me: just wanted to say to Spot that DS1 spent much of his first three months screaming and it doesn't seem to have done him any harm at all. Oh and Trace: also managed to settle DS2 briefly without a feed last night, watching Searching for the Wrong-Eyed Jesus which was rather disturbing (some good music tho). Led to big Talk about children and religion - I'd been wondering whether to take the DSs to church, DH disapproves .

Next time I post about my 'model' baby someone tell me not to speak too soon. The past two nights have been hell. After his 'model' day he was awake 4 times in the night. Then last night he woke at 1am and didn't settle again till 3.30am Although he did sleep till 7.30, DD was awake at 5.30. He used to wake and settle so I never bothered about how often he woke but now he just won't go back to sleep! He cries and cries I know he's tired but he just won't sleep.

He does have yet another cold, and a cough he has had for weeks. So I took him to the GP yesterday in the hope that maybe he had something that might be causing his constant waking but he is fine. Just a cold. So is it teeth? I did give calpol last night as i was at my wits end and was too tired to take him out for a drive again. We are supposed to be going to Devon next week and I just can't look forward to it thinking he is going to be up all the time and I am too tired to do anything with DD.

Anyway, enough of me...WG how horrendous for you on the sleep front. Is LO always waking for a feed? If not hopefully your Dad and ladyfriend can help out in Portugal and let you get some rest. You certainly sound like you need it.

Sex... Have cut down on the BF quite a lot now but still no sex drive. Although I put it down to the lack of sleep tbh.

kayz hope the wrist is better soon.

verso you must have made a fab impression fingers crossed for tuesday.

jj great news about your friend's baby

Lal I forgot to say yesterday it's a shame you didn't have my number or something as I would have happily had you in for a cuppa, it would have given you some respite from the screaming demons. We need a little map of where we all are so if anyone is driving anywhere they can use a MN dec2009 mum as a schedualed or unschedualed stop off.

Effie you said something yesterday I was going to comment on, but I can't remember what it was, I think you made me giggle about something. I really think I should write things down as I'm reading.

Also I don't think I'm gonna get to go to mamaheaven the Ibiza one fell through and we will be in holland for the August one (would have been fun spot). But I found a place called Calcot manor which looks lovely has a spa and a crèche! I was thinking I might go with just DS1 so we can have some time together then I thought how great it would be to go with all of them and DH and I could actually have some time at the spa together and maybe go for a run together!!! We have been lamenting not exercising together lately as it was a time we used to really talk to each other and we really miss it.

Oh speaking of exercise I have signed myself up to a little triathlon, I said after the last one I would retire from the sport (not that I was ever am elite athlete) but I've been thinking about it lately and really miss it so will see how it goes. It's in September so have to get my ass moving and do some training.

Oh and speaking of being healthy and training for this triathlon I ordered a pizza from Dominoes last night so I could some of their chocolate brownies with toffee & chocolate sauce...it wasn't as good as it sounds though.

This morning I have learnt that when DD falls asleep on her playmat, face down in a pool of drool (see earlier post about her hating lying on her front) it is not baby language for 'I want my breakfast', maybe she was trying to tell me she was tired. Therefore trying to get her into a high chair for porridge then to BF her was unsuccessful as she will sleep through it all. Maybe tomorrow I'll be better at reading her signals

ZJ that's quite funny, and can also relate. Though if I found DS2 asleep on the playmat now I think I would halt all activity in that room and camp out somewhere else til he'd woken.

Oh and sorry about the 2 steps backwards after your perfect mummy day Daisy.

PMK I meant to say the other day congrats on Tennants. Always a bit stressful waiting.

Help me....DS has refused to nap all morning, despite clearly being exhausted (lots of yawning, eye-rubbing, unexplained crying). Anyway, he has just had a feed and was falling asleep when he had finished, so I put him in cot. He came too screaming and screaming. Picked him up and he calmed, put him back down and screamed. I left the room and he only cried for a few minutes but is now asleep. I feel like such a cow leaving him to cry himself to sleep But I know he needed to sleep, just a shame he doesn't realise it. Oh I just feel bad at the mo, poor DD is probably already Cbeebie-d out. But DS hasn't let me get on with much this morning.

Right best go and make us some lunch and try and have a bit of QT with her while DS sleeps...please let it be more than an hour!

ZJ am that your DD will just randomly fall asleeep.

veggie triathlon. My hat is off to you hon! Good on ya.

Oh dear Daisy . Can you get out this afternoon at all? DS1 is driving me up the wall (screaming and tantrums at playgroup) so I'm posting him in the playground this afternoon to wear him out! DS2 calm in comparison but NO POO IN TWO DAYS

Daisy I'm with you on the let cry. DS2 wasn't exactly screaming but as the thread seems to have a crying theme I left him awake and a little teary to settle himself to sleep, (DS1has a friend over to play and had summoned me because they wanted more OJ). He made some upset but tired sounding clucking & wimpering noises, and has now gone silent. I think the next thread title can be along the lines of feeling fine about letting our devils angels cry.

You may wonder why I bothered to leave him when DS1 just wanted some OJ. I had given them sandwiches for lunch and left them to it while I put DS2 to sleep but while I was settling him I suddenly thought I hadn't asked the little girls mum if she was allergic to anything and was thinking 'I hope she's not allergic to wheat or dairy' then DS1 called out something which I couldn't quite hear but I thought it sounded like 'X is vomiting!' so I rushed out on a crying DS2 only to find they had found the amount of juice I gave them entirely inadequate.

Quick! I have 2 sleeping children!

Thank you for the spa suggestions I think a nice 90min massage (during which I shall fall asleep and probably have my longest uninterrupted sleep for a long time) is the way to go.

Having said that I might lob some food at dd soon the little thief snaffled some melon. This was met by great glee from ds who proudly informed me that "Daisy eating melon mummy, Mmmmmmm tasty melon Daisy". The girl has turned into a small hoover overnight and has decided that she likes melon, toast, cheese on toast, cheese on its own, strawberries, yoghurt, nectarine, baby sweetcorn and banana. She is not convinced by sweet potato or tomatoes.

Spurred on a little by arti's decision to actually bloody well do something about the sleep situation we are going to start pupd this weekend. I can't do cc, I just can't but we need to kick this dummy. She goes to sleep beautifully by herself with it she just wakes up whenever she goes into light sleep because it has fallen out.

Although actually she did a marathon sleep last night. I resettled her at 7.15 after her first 45mins as per usual and she slept until 11 then until 1 and then did her usual fussing, tossing, turning, waking etc. Of course ds has a couple of night terrors then woke up and wanted to get in bed and snuggle so I didn't exactly get to benefit from this miracle sleep and I managed to do my back in at 1am squished in between my children feeding dd with ds curled up against my back. Happy days.

Right, shall post this "me" fest and go read and note down personals. Hopefully before either monster child wakes

Oh remember what it was Effie. You talked about DS1 having his dummy for sleep and using it until he gave it up himself. That has made me realize that's what I want to do. DS2 rarely uses it other than going to sleep and once it's out he doesn't seem to wake for it. He goes back to sleep o/n after feeds without it. So on your experience I'm just going to go with it and let him keep it til he's ready to give it up. I'm not bothered about teeth, I have such an over bite from thumb sucking so I prefer the dummy to that.

I now have 2 awake children. Ds had a terror during his nap. I had to slap him to get him out of it So horrible when he has one like that. I hope he is just missing dh and he'll be fine tonight as dh due home around bath time.

So, in some random order as I have notes scribbled on scraps of paper:

Veggie I love saunas but a pedicure is not mt idea of fun. Though if a paedicure can rid me of children for a night I'll take it

On the eating front babies will self regulate, I'm all for letting them eat what they want.

MoM have book marked your links to read about pupd though I think ours will not be quite so strict and I will be feeding over night!

Trace hope you are now feeling better re weaning. Trust yourself

Ds has excema too, horrid stuff. I second oats they are great. As is slathering huge amounts of aqueous cream on the instant they get out of the bath.

All mention of AF and PMT to be banned. I'm getting spotty. Hormones on the war path.

pmk how is dummy ditching going?

Trace we opened CTF a while ago, also with childrens mutual.

I don't think dh would be a good sahd. The kids would be fine but the man can't even manage to clean the loo when I leave him alone for a week and still doesn't seem to understand that he needs to clean the chopping board not just wipe the bits off.

MoM my cat used to bring live prey in and lose it.I have chased rabbits from out behiond the piano, found mice shredding wrapping paper from inside christmas presents to make nests and had birds fly into my face when watering pot plants.

notjusta sorry about your uncle.

no idea how much dd weighs, next see HV at 9 months so I guess I'll find out then!

Kayz hope wrist better.

sybil for job. Hope all ok.

What is sex?

lol zj and sleepy baby.

Daisy hope ok and model baby returns. Sometimes days like that happen. When dd has been like that I've put her down and gone to clean the loo or hang the washing. It feels like ages but she has usually gone to sleep by the time I'm done.

Right off to see if ds has perked up a bit after watching itng and feed the squirming monster that is on my lap.

LadyT hope you're feeling a bit cheerier. Shame about the cricket. Where are you going in Italy? I am getting real pangs of jealousy reading about everybody's holidays (although ladies, I beg of you, please no more talk of driving to the South of France with DCs in tow ... you are making me feel quite queasy). Life in The Country has been mixed so far - not sure I can hack it long term but early days still, so won't say too much just yet. Post London Grump? Hmmm, see, although there are lots of things I'm missing about London, I don't actually particularly miss London itself IYSWIM. London's never really got under my skin like it obviously has with you - the only place I tend to really pine for is Barcelona, and I'm pining for it quite a bit at the moment. Oh and agree on the reading - one of the real bonuses of our new place is that it's not really conducive to watching telly (or MNing, sadly) and I'm actually getting a bit of reading done, which I've really missed since having DS.

Effie I don't envy you the religion thing. DP and I luckily see more or less eye to eye on religion but I imagine it will get tricky if it becomes a question of to the sleights of faith that parents often perform to get their children into the better schools. We have the meat or no meat question here though. Only a matter of time before that one comes to a head and I'm really not looking forward to it - such a tiresome subject for discussion.

Sybs rubbish about your job. How easy is it to find something similar in your field? If there is any reshuffling to be done you should be first in the queue though, being on maternity.

Verso sorry you didn't get that particular job but the feedback sounds great - sounds like you are well on the way to finding an employer who appreciates you.

arti happy half-birthday to DD.

Blimey, what a lot of very unsettled babies out there at the moment. Hope it passes soon.

Cambridge meet-up - have sort of lost the thread a bit but has there been one/is there going to be one? Not around much for the next week or two but if there is one planned for July I'd be up for it if I can.

SAHDs - DP is one still, which is nice. He is much better than me at a lot of the household stuff, although the arrangement does bring out the control freak in me - I expect him to do all the stuff I'm too lazy to do but expect him to do it EXACTLY the way I would do it if only I could be bothered. Luckily he is a lovely man whose only aim in life is to please me. The plan is for him to get a job and me stay at home for a while (but not just yet). I hate going out to work but secretly suspect I would be a rubbish SAHM without DP to do all the donkey work.

Feeling a lot less grumpy after my hormonal meltdown last week. However, my mum is coming to visit on Sunday so I'm bracing myself.

Triathlons? Sex lives? Somebody get me a dictionary and a stiff drink.

Sure there was more but must get out & post my dad's Father's Day card. Is anyone doing anything special for their DH/DP? Luckily they were making cards on the craft table at the toddler group the other day so we have a lovely cheapo hand-made one with the DCs' handprints on it.

Ditto on the handprint card PD

Veggir: I think it must have been someone else on the dummy, both of mine have refused to look at one. But your approach sounds pretty sensible

Hello!!

Wrist still painful, got loads of painkillers. Hope everyone is ok.

Jump, we speak everyday on MN, so quite often.