November 2014: The one that needs baby-proofing!

[ladydolly]

And maybe ends with 1st birthdays!!

Thanks Anna and Ark.

DD ended up in our bed last night after the fifth time I just got my head onto the pillow in time for her to scream again. Meant I finally got to sleep at 1:50 but was up at 6 for work so very very tired tonight. Had a row with DP last night too and was once again feeling like I can't go on but tonight he surprised me by sorting MIL to come and sit with DD while he took me out for a meal. It was nice to just talk over a glass of wine - one glass for me anyway and rest of the bottle for DP!

So far DD has stayed asleep since we left apparently. Going to try and sleep now so fingers crossed I get a good couple of hours in!

Hope everyone whose nights haven't been great is onto a better spell tonight.

Twiglet hope you get some sleep

The 2-3 wakings a night have taken their toll had a stinking headache n neck ache since Tue and know its sleep related we go through good patches of 1-2 wake ups and then it's the 2-3wake ups which get me.

Ds1 is 5 on tues and we have his party tomorrow he is soooo excited

Twiglet I really hope you got some sleep last night. It must be so hard working and managing DD when she's up so much. I'm glad you got a break to go out with your DP last night. Our night out last Saturday really helped us feel like we were still a couple and not just domestic servants to a very demanding small person.

I am really struggling with getting DS to sleep in his cot during the day. What do you all do to settle yours? I had him in the pushchair for day naps when he grew out of his hammock, but he's getting so big I decided he needed to go into the cot, however it's taking at least an hour each time to get him down, accompanied by increasingly loud and hysterical screaming. He won't be held for a cuddle and the only thing I can do if I can get him to sit on my lap for long enough is jiggle him which makes him sleepy. But I'm reluctant to get him reliant on something else.

I had the sleep 'expert' hv out this week but all she succeeded in doing was making me feel like the worst mother in the world. She picked my routine to bits eg. what I'm feeding him, when I'm feeding him and telling me he couldn't be tired if it was taking over an hour to get him to sleep because 'tired children go down within 15 minutes' She told me he only needs just over 2 hours daytime sleep during the day at his age (he regularly sleeps for 3.5 over two naps) and that I should be leaving it at least 3 if not 4 hours between naps. Well I tried that yesterday and all I ended up with was a very overtired, hysterical child.

It has really knocked my confidence. I had a complete breakdown on Thursday because of it where I just felt so alone and useless and I am feeling more and more desperate now about getting him down during the day. I just feel like such a sh*t mother. All I wanted was some help on sleep association with his cot during the day and apparently everything I'm doing is wrong. Night time sleep is fine. Have any of you got any suggestions?

Sorry for the essay.

No suggestions but just sympathy and flowers

I still feed ds to sleep for naps

Oh and you're not shit, more like your HV is shit!
Care to post your routine and we'll try to be a bit more constructive?

thisis your HV is ridiculous, especially her belief that tired babies go to sleep within 15mins. Does she realise that not all babies are the same, they don't all follow the same routines or need the same amount of sleep at the exact same times? After telling you you are doing it all wrong, did she actually offer any 'advice'? Was that complete bollocks too? I have no advice, as I have never even tried to put my baby in her cot for a nap, only recently persuaded her to sleep in it at all and struggle most days to get her to nap for more than 30mins total (imagine what your HV would make of me!), but have you tried posting on the MN Sleep topic for some more sensible non-judgemental advice?

Christ that woman sounds unhelpful. And bollocks to the 15 mins thing - hasnt she ever heard of overtiredness?

With naps we struggle every morning. We have no set time cos you could be trying for 40 mins some days. He starts getting tired at around 8.30 if he's up at 6.30 but that means nothing! Its just a fiendish ruse!

He's just gone down now at 9.30 so a full hour of "sleepy cues".

At this stage we turn on the telly, let him sit next to us in the big armchair and let him go quiet watching. After a while I turn off the sound. Then after another while we'll see if we can turn it off completey and usually he'll climb up on me and snuggle into my neck.

If he grasps my ear I know I'm only 5 mins away from sleep. Needless to say the dummy is deployed during this wind down too.

So yeah..its a right pain. Oddly, afternoons are much easier.

To be totally honest? Dd naps in her buggy. 2 days of an hour of screaming and crying and then her only napping for 10/15 mins and I just stick to the buggy, I can lie it totally flat and just strap her legs in. She will sleep for up to 2 hours in it.

Bad mum I guess!

Thanks MrsA. In brief, it is/was this:

5.30-6.30am Awake
7-7.30am Breakfast (readybrek/weetabix/etc) and 150/180ml milk (I stopped bf last month)
8.30ish nap for 1-2.5 hrs
12pm ish lunch
Depending on what time he woke up nap can be any time from 12.30/1pm onwards, again for 1-2.5 hours.
I was feeding tea/dinner at 4/4.30 which I accept is probably a bit early so I've changed that to 5/5.30 but his bedtime routine starts at 6 (I've had enough by then), bath, bottle (210ml) and bed and he's usually asleep by 6.45, 7pm at the latest. She thinks I should put him to bed later :-/ but I'm a morning person so I don't mind the early starts and I am cream crackered by 6pm. I really value need my evenings, and as I'm usually in bed by 9.30/10pm my time to myself will be considerably shortened if I put his bedtime back.
11pm late night feed (210ml) done by DP. I know this one needs to be phased out eventually but I have been waiting until his sleeping through is established. We are slowly getting there on the sleeping through I think, but this is the last thing I think I need to/want to address right now. No way am I messing with this until the daytime naps are sorted.

She thinks I need to leave it longer between naps i.e. 4 hours, but if I do that I can't fit them all into the day and he ends up sleeping too close to bedtime.

I felt that everything was ticking along pretty much ok and all I wanted was some help with settling him during the day, but she told me I was getting him down too early in the morning (he's tired by 8.30, eye rubbing, sitting and staring), and that I was trying to get him down too soon for his afternoon nap. That he should be awake for 4 hours in between naps and that 'other children of his age only need 2 hours during the day' and that if I put him down at 6.30pm I should be waking him on the dot at 5.30am (haha) as he should only be sleeping for 11 hours a night. And if it's taking me over an hour to get him down during the day then he's clearly not tired and I am jeopardising his night time routine by making his bedroom into a bogey place and causing stress.

Writing all this down I can see that some of what she said is totally ridiculous. It's not like they're all the same. But I really don't want to make it into an issue. It was all fine with the pushchair - he'd drop off in 10 minutes - all I need is a way of making the cot a daytime sleepy place. I only rung them for a bit of advice over the phone and suddenly they were making appointments and then round here and adjusting everything. And now because I was upset on the phone the day after she came when I was struggling with him and feeling somewhat under attack, she wants to send another hv round next week to do a 'questionnaire' to see if I'm depressed. GAAAAAH. I wish I'd never bothered.

I am just very tired and all I need is a few pointers. It doesn't take much for self doubt to creep in though and I'm struggling to hang on to my common sense.

Happy, Anna and Ark thank you! You've all made me laugh. I posted my second essay and read your posts with an increasing sense of relief. I am SO pleased it's not just me. Of course I should have realised that but it gets horribly self-centred and inward looking when you start to worry about things.

I shall stop worrying henceforth and when she rings again tell her everything's magically ok and perfect, thank you for all the help and we're fine now. And just come here instead I'm so glad it's not just me. I shall try your tv thing Anna

Oh my God I would crack up if I didn't have my evenings. Ignore that for a start!

We have tea at 5.30 too. Then sleep = 6.30-6.30/7.

Tbh the only thing I can think of is moving the morning nap to 9am but doing something quiet in the meantime. Read books etc. Like DS he might just not be ready at 8.30 despite all the cues to the contrary.

X-post! (I didn't know if you'd approve of the TV thing - we prob rely on it too much but fuck it, it helps!)

Haha! I don't approve or disapprove of anything! Whatever works is fine with me! Life is hard enough being a mum without worrying about protocol. And having just written that epiphany, I might just go back to using the sodding pushchair. It was MIL who started all this by telling me I should be getting him down in a cot not the pushchair. Two fingers to her. Ha!

Thanks ladies, you are wonderful.

thisis Tell her to do one. Seriously. Babies aren't rolled off a conveyor belt with the same instruction manual. Our babies and our routines sound v.similar. dd wakes at 6ish, works for me as I'm also a morning person and goes to bed at 6.30/7. She naps at 9ish and 1ish and has solid meals at 7.30, 12 and 5. Milk before each nap and before bed. When she's with me/at home she sleeps in the cot after being fed or rocked BUT she fights it, only for 5/10 minutes, but she moans and wriggles away from me before falling asleep in my arms and pop her in the cot. At cm and with dp she sleeps in the buggy. I had a huge freakout about it at 5 months and again a few weeks ago but I've decided not to care. It works, we're all happy. The 2 other babies at cm also sleep in buggy. My mum was a cm for years and she lets her sleep in buggy. Try not to let what 'should' be done upset you.
Now, if you do want her in the cot try and create a shorter version of bedtime routine. Put her in same outfit, give a bedtime toy or blanket, (have you got Ewan or similar?) play ewan, use sleep cue language (as we go into bedroom I always say 'sleepytime now'). Have you got blackout blinds? I swear by them.

Loads of this is against advice (naps in the dark, feeding right before sleep) but it works for us.
Also dd only sleeps 45 mins sometimes and then she'll do 2 hours other times. No biggy.

Now I've written an essay but I really don't want anyone making you feel bad, sounds like you're doing absolutely fine!!!

My mum looks at me like when I say dd still sleeps in her buggy. I honestly couldn't give two shits. Dd is growing, eating, shouting, crawling yeah that was a shocker this morning and she's fine so im going to keep doing what works to be honest! It means she's more than happy to nap when were out and I can move her around the house when I want to do loud things

We are on our last days of Cornwall holidays, so starting to catch up with the thread. DD has been star although the tiredness of more than week constantly driving around and sight seeing starts to catch up on her. Not that extremely animated baby anymore.

Thisis big hug to you. Please, ditch all the pretend experts, MIL included, the only expert of your baby is yourself, do what works for you and your family, not what they say in books etc. Tbh I have been avoiding HVs "like the devil steering clear of a cross". On the 2nd compulsory visit she started to ask all the questions to see if I have pnd. I openly told her that I wasn't depressed but she would just stare at me and carry on with the "interview"! Argh!
Our DD naps where it happens really, buggy, car, cot, our bed, anywhere what works that particular time. And if I can't get her down for longer time I take her back downstairs and put in jumperoo to burn the rest of energy (no idea what I'll do when she grows out of it!), bcs her moaning and banging feet is horrendous, I just don't have patience for it for too long. "Experts" would be horrified that I am teaching her to manipulate us etc, but that works for us and I don't care. They would be horrified if they'd learned I was staying up with parents watching films till 10pm or so when I was 6 or 7, i was never forced to bed at particular time, was allowed to stay up until I felt tired, then I just packed in myself and went to bed. I don't remember any bedtime fights from my childhood.
Don't let any more HVs come over and pester you over depression and bullocks. All they do is follow the process set out by management.

Could you try doing bottle in his room then at first let him fall asleep with it, then just shy of asleep and into cot to ssssh and work on reducing how sleepy he is when you put him in the cot gradually?

Thank you Ladydolly especially for the bit about the cm and your mum not giving a fig about pushchairs. We use sleep cues (we say sleepytime too) and have blackout blinds too, and he has a specific toy for daytime naps so I'm using all those at the moment.

Ark my mother is also the queen of disapproving looks! And oooh, exciting about the crawling! Enjoy!

Strawberry glad you've had a good holiday. Thank you for sharing your lovely laid back approach

and MrsA I think I will go back to using a bottle for the time being. The hv was horrified that I was letting him associate a bottle with sleep, but I think it might help him associate sleep with the cot if I continue along that vein. Having said that we're 25 mins in to trying to get him down for his pm nap and still going, despite giving him a bottle! Oh well, if we're still going in another 25 mins I'm going to get the pushchair out of the car

Thanks ladies, you're all lifesavers. I feel much more positive than I did this morning. xx

I thought I had baby proofed.

Dd has spent all day proving me wrong

Having read about your experience thisis I dont think I will bother trying to get hold of the HV to discuss my dds sleep, I have so many 'bad habits' (currently sitting in the car outside the hospital where MIL is so dd can finish her nap!). I still feed to sleep for naps and she just stays on the bed (and I have a nap if I can). Dh has been taking her out in the car on long drives while I'm at work.

Oh caz I didn't mean to put anyone off. My sleep 'expert' hv might be a one off.. If it's not driving you to distraction then does it need fixing? On the other hand if you're finding it not liveable with then maybe worth finding some help. There is a name on the sleep board, Anne Caird, who seems to be very popular. Her website is here www.nurturingsleep.co.uk/ If things get bad again I might think about looking her up. She seems more in line with my way of thinking from what I've read so far. I have no idea what she charges though...it may be prohibitive!

I am fast coming to the conclusion Ark that nothing is babyproof. It doesn't matter how much I think the room is safe, he seems to be magnetically attracted to the one thing I don't want him to go near. For some extremely odd reason, DP's stinky shoes and a close lying manky pair of socks were most attractive this morning. You couldn't pay me enough to go near them, but DS was contentedly sniffing them and stuffing them in his mouth.

Anyway Thisis you might not want DS to get used to nap strictly in the cot. When you will be out and about all day it will be a nightmare, he won't sleep unless in the cot. Better he gets used to crash down anywhere whenever he's tired. If it has to be just one thing for the DS, I would say buggy is a better option than the cot