The brookers post graduate thread

[hawthers]

We've got so good at brooking no argument for no pregnancy complications and sneeze births, we're going for our Phds in big fat babies

just popping in to say i miss seeing so much of you guys!

and maybe marking my place in the hope of having something to say in a couple of weeks. :)

hope these wee monkeys give you a break soon. x

Into battle for the evening and night we go Brookers!!!! ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

It is official. DH cannot help in the night. Today has been much worse because he is so tired and cranky. And last night he went into our box room and slept in the single bed there as usual from 10:15- 1:50 (while I did whole routine again in that time), helped with the boys prolonged feed, wind, feed some more, wind some more, nappies, change soaked pukey clothes, change soaked pukey travel cot, top up, settle til 2:30, I went to the spare room, they woke again at 3:30 (!!!), feed etc again, then when we got them down again at 5ish, he slept in our room with them til they woke at 7:30 and then we got up with DD. Sigh. Me versus the twins in the wee small hours it is

purple, if I crack and give the babies a top up feed, what should I do? I hope it would be ebm, but I've had such varying advice so far: one mw said a sippy cup, let them lap it up, another said that'll increase their windiness a lot (and they're both very windy babies, today the mw said they are the exception that proves the rule that bf babies aren't windy!!), some say a bottle to top up will mean they won't go back to the breast, another said a bottle once a day won't hurt, it's if you top up with a bottle after every feed that they're not interested.... what would you say?? Not sure it'll happen, but they're such nocturnal little creatures I may resort to it.

Just got Abbie to sleep post two hours of screaming! Yuck!

dream - the toddler wake ups a killer! I'm sure mine have walkie talkies under the mattress for the tag teaming activities!

Today officially began with dd1 running into my room waving a diarrhoea covered finger at me. Pjs in bin, bed sheets in bin and toddler in shower. At six am! Then Abbie wanted feeding. Then dd1 wanted breakfast and so the day continued!

Hey jaggy - we have glittery matchsticks here reserved for your eyes. Convo is sleep and feed based!

biscuits - we've been using sterimar saline spray here.

Dream I would look at syringe feeding, if cup feeding doesn't appeal, it isn't a sippy with a spout type cup, it is literally a wee cup. There is also finger feeding. (Pcts vary on whether they like finger feeding or not though!)
However, I don't know it would give you the break you hope for?.. :(

Remember, you have to sterilise everything, express or mess about boiling the kettle. etc for artificial milk. All the bf friendly options i.e cup feeding and finger feeding are time consuming. (Syringe feeding is a bit easier)

Also the 'best' feed to 'miss' is in the day. At night is the most important feeds as prolactin levels are higher, so it would hit your supply harder. Or you end up expressing so could have fed anyway?

With bottles, there is no hard and fast rules, no one knows which babies will be affected. There are babies who take a bottle once and then have lots of problems. Other babies are fine.

Artificial milk could increase windiness and can come with its own problems.

Now, is it just a break from winding and the routine of it or are you really sore? If it is the break please, please get some help. If it is soreness that needs to be checked out.

My standard advice is that if your having latch issues, stay away from bottles. Try and use EBM if you do top up, as you are trying to build or supply and Artificial milk can compromise this.

I know you want DD to be taken out but could you maybe split the days so you can have help with winding.etc?
On the other side if you are at breaking point, then remember every drop of breastmilk is great.

Please remember I am not with you so find it hard to chat it over the internet. Is there any chance you can see a lactation consultant?

Sorry had to cut my post early for takeaway, so can't refine it. You are doing so well and your boys are thriving :)

Go to sleep, baby. In your basket, not exclusively on Mummy. And stop arching backwards with nipple clenched firmly in mouth, because it really hurts and it makes your latch slip. And that really hurts too, and Mummy's nipples are getting very sore.

Ow, I thought that after a fortnight or so of pain-free feeding I was home free, but it is hurting again, for the reasons outlined above. I suppose I could call my peer supporter but I'm conscious that she has a 6 week old baby and 2 elder daughters and it's the Easter holidays. Maybe I should take Maia off the boob as soon as she starts to arch herself backwards. It's just that often I latch her in what looks like a perfect latch and then she spits out part of the nipple before settling to feed. I do have enormous nipples and she can't get the whole thing in her mouth anyway.

Dream, how are things? I think expressing and syringing adds a whole new level of stress, but if your nipples are v sore then it might be worth doing once a day. I don't think you should try doing it at every feed - it's exhausting. Sorry to hear about the chaos of last night and that DH helping isn't working out. Are you managing to get any sleep during the day?

Pomme, that sounds dreadful! Ick at diarrhoea covered finger, gross!

Purple, how are you getting on with the tongue tie issue?

Dream - brooking that your DH recovers soon - what a tough time for all of you. . And fwiw, I also think it is not necessarily true that bf babies are never windy. DS1 was really windy and really hard to wind too. Ds2 is also windy but sometimes easier to burp (sometimes not though!)

I wonder if, in theory, they should be less windy if they have a perfect latch? Ds1 never did (tongue tie) and ds2 does a but of what Too described there with starting off latched on but then letting a bit go, and gradually slipping off as he feeds. (And he does the back arching too sometimes avec nipple - ouch indeed!)

I can't offer any advice on the expressing thing, but when ds1 was still in hospital we had to do a formula top up because he wasn't eating anything. We'd done some syringe feeding of EBM but when it came to the formula we did it in a cup and it was a little medicine cup. Is that the sort of thing you'd have to use now? Or would it need to be something bigger? I guess they're still so wee they can't be eating much?

Don't forget you're not even a fortnight in yet - you're doing awesomely! And a lactation consultant sounds like a great idea if you can find one. As Purple says if you can get someone to come and look at it all that would be so helpful. Obviously I have no experience but the problems you're having (ie struggling to get them both to latch on properly at the same time) sounds like it would be really common with tandem feeding. So there must be a better answer than 'don't tandem feed' as the HV (or whoever it was) suggested! I bet you could find a LC with experience of multiples?

Pomme hope you're getting some sleep - ergh indeed for the pooey start to the day (literally and figuratively!)

Too we seem to have had latching on regression here too

Oooh, I'm just posting while ds2 settles back off to sleep and he's just been sick so better go sort it out

Laters brookers - brook on dudes

Yes, I think poor latch makes them.more windy. That's Bens problem but Seb also v windy and everyone who's looked says his latch is good?! I've seen two nd supporters in hospital. Not got anywhere though .there are bf support groups, but with not driving post CS and no-one can take me with my brood without being on my car insurance I'm.a bit stuck.

Crap parenting confession:
I had a meltdown last night when i just couldn't settle Seb and it was midnight and I'd been trying for so long but he just wouldn't stop feeding... Ben also feeding for parts of the time. Had to get dh and there were tears and bitter complaints about being unable to make fing babies go to fing sleep and how desperate I was to lie down.. an incident I'm most definitely ashamed of...

Think it would be a medicine cup type thing biscuits though the syringe sounds easiest to me. No idea how much I'd give- all these things make me think i should just persevere... But I'm so tired I'm feeling the strain... I get opportunities to sleep in the day but i can't sleep.. catch 22.

How's everyone else doing today?

We're all full of cold/shitting viruses here but lazy day so good. Have discovered Abbie prefers dozing on her playmat to her bouncer. Watching wall e with dd1 currently after managing to prepare and serve a Sunday lunch which is today's big achievement.

Aren't meltdowns like that obligatory when you reach the end of your sleep deprivation
tether?! I guess you reach that quicker with twins as you're only getting half the sleep you would with a singleton and that's harsh enough quite frankly!

Dh already talking about when I go back to work (we have our own company but haven't managed so far to work together for it). I have proffered up me now being incapable of doing anything involving having a sharp brain and a possible dc3. He's not buying it all though.

Agree with the windiness thing. Obviously I don't have a bottle-fed baby to hand to compare with, but Maia seems to get wind a lot - she starts fighting with my boob and howling into it while still sucking. Holding her upright usually makes her quieten down and then she'll burp (or throw up ).

Dream, I have had numerous moments where I have cried all over DH because she won't go to fcking sleep . They seem to hit me at about 8am when I have spent all night trying to settle her and DH has been sleeping peacefully and it all builds up to the realisation that the night is over and I didn't get any fcking sleep. DH, bless him, tends to take her out in the pram or the car when I get to this stage - she is never hungry, has invariably been feeding for hours and refusing to sleep in her basket for longer than 15 mins, and she just needs to be helped to get to sleep.

Biscuits, at brook on dudes!

too, my black time is often around 3am... I was just so fed up and wanting to stop picking babies in and out of the travel cot and constantly feed/ wind/ change I cracked at midnight last night... But I agree also its when DD gets up and I realise night is over too and I've had almost no sleep again. what a relief its not another sign of my rubbish parenting (I feel bad I don't even do bedtime with DD as I can't lift her into her cot... Other people, gp or dh, do all her nappies/ meals-lifting into highchair, naps-for cot reason...poor child, abandoned by her mother) Both mine do the messing at the boob, crying, arching, unable to latch on through windiness. The feeding for hours does my head in- you know they can't be hungry, but I carry on letting them feed anyway to allow milk supply to increase if that's what its all about, and because they holler otherwise, but its so exhausting.

Now the thought of work would make me cry pomme! Blimey, prepare and serve a proper meal?! With 2 dc including a bf one around!? Now that is more than coping, that's amazing!! I must try harder...

Love that you're all planning dc3 :-) . Dh has already said I am not ever allowed a dc4... I get really cross when he says it, but we did agree three children a long time ago.

Oh, and i haven't dared look or anything, but i think the varicose veins in my fanjo have gone :-) . Can't feel them.when i stand up, heavy and aching anyway like in pg, and all feels half the size when washing. Thought you'd all be dying for that fanjo update . How's yours healing biscuits?

Morning all

Dream - thank you for the VV update . It's about time something gave you a bit of a break in this baby business.

Mine is all healing up ok I think. But I have piles that I can't get rid of . Still all feels a bit sore on occasion and sometimes I'm still wondering whether I wish I'd had a CS. I know it's academic as in the situation I was in they wouldn't have done one, but I do wonder 'what if'?

And YY to getting to the time DS gets up and feeing that that's another night gone with v little sleep (and I'm not doing anywhere near what you're doing!). Hope your DH is on the mend? How's he doing after the weekend? Have you still got some
help at home? I hope your DH will still get some time off after he's recuperated rather than using up all his paternity leave being ill iyswim? Will he get more time off work?

And I can totally relate to feeling like I've 'abandoned' ds1 a tiny bit with having to look after DS2. I feel like we were a little team before and now we can't do what we used to. It will get better though. Once we get through that fourth trimester I think we'll have babies that are a bit 'better value' for their older siblings rather than just feeding machines. And as you say Dream it's incredibly hard now (understatement?) but it will be so lovely when they're all playing together - and that time isn't that far away really. It'll be a blinking hard slog to get there but every day brings that time one day closer. And DD will love having her two little playmates. It will be so nice for them all to be so close in age.

Anyway, hope everyone has had a bit of sleep tonight. xxx

Morning!

DH's alarm woke Maia but not DH . Madam does not like it when something disturbs her sleep (oh the irony!). Still, she was pretty good last night, all in all. Gotta go - I can hear her grizzling. Will be back later to reply properly.

Dream, you can do it, yes you can!

MIL asked DH yesterday whether Maia had dropped a feed yet. I take it she means spacing the feeds out a bit. Is this something she is likely to do at 5 weeks? I haven't ever counted them, so I started counting yesterday. She's had 6 feeds since 11pm last night, so she might have 6 or 7 in 24 hours. All of today's daytime feeds have lasted for about 2.5 hours (gaah), incorporating some breaks where she either wants to sit up and look about, or else has a short nap but wakes up as soon as I put her down. I guess it depends on what you count as one feed - if she snoozes for 15 or 20 mins and then wakes up, is that one feed or two? Last night she did a ten minute feed (yes!) and then slept for an hour before waking for an hour-long feed, followed by 2 hours sleep (although then the alarm clock woke her up so we might have slept for longer if not for that). I'm rambling now - I really just meant to ask about this dropping a feed business. Any thoughts?

at Dream's VV update! Yay for them vanishing!

Biscuits, I am Brooking for your piles to vanish. Maybe they will just go away gradually. After all, it's only been 5 weeks since you gave birth. I find myself being pretty dehydrated because I forget to drink in the night - if I have M latched using my right arm then I can't pick up my water glass, and by the time I get her to go down I just want to fall asleep, not drink water. I think that doesn't help the piles situation.

I just want to say that you are all, without exception, awesome for dealing so well with toddlers as well as newborns. I can't imagine how knackered I would be if I had to feed and amuse a toddler during the day instead of collapsing back into bed for a nap whenever I can. You are all incredible mothers!

Tell me, is anyone managing to do even a tiny bit of housework? My house looks like a bomb hit it. The living room hasn't been hoovered since my mum left 4 weeks ago . The PIL are coming this weekend and my heart just sinks at the thought of trying to make the house presentable before they arrive. Might throw myself on my mum's mercy and beg her to come down and help me.

My house gets a good clean once a week too .

Ignore, ignore, ignore anything mils say regarding infant feeding imho too. Mine always asks me when the next feed is due (and did with dd1 too) and I never know what to say. When she cries maybe?! Did your mil formula feed or use a schedule?Abbie has fed hourly since 3pm today and I think she feeds maybe 12 times in 24 hours on average? But I probably count feeds as separate if there's a decent break (say 45 mins plus I guess?).

Abbie is seven weeks today and still does three and a half hours maximum between feeds maybe twice a day...

Oh Too and Pomme I get that all the time too, from both mothers (mine and DH's, I don't have two..... ) and other family members.

'Is he in a routine yet?'

'How long does be go between feeds?'

'Has he slept through the night yet?'

Gee, let me think, well, routine wise he likes to rise about 7, and then he might take tea and toast whilst browsing the morning papers. At around 10:30am he might watch 15 minutes of BBC news 24 to catch up on world events. Then he'll often take a stroll around the gardens before luncheon. After lunch, he may nap before dealing with the day's post and emails. Then it would be time to dress for supper after which he'll retire to the drawing room for port and a game of Bridge or Whist, depending on his fancy

My mother is literally obsessed by the idea of feeding every four hours. And no doubt did this with me from day 1 when I was a baby (and of course had me sleeping through too ). And TBH I think a teeny tiny baby only getting fed every four hours makes Gina Ford look like a lentil weaving attachment parenting advocate . *

But she'll ask me when he's 'due' a feed etc - Gah! In fact the other day when she was visiting he started crying and rooting. She asked (of course) how long since his last feed. Told her it was about 2 hours and she said 'surely he shouldn't be feeding every 2 hours ?' I just said 'Says who? Which book has he read?'

I apologise if I've already related these incidents. It's a pet hate of mine!

In terms of how long he actually is going between feeds I'd say he normally has 7-8 feeds on an average day, and it works out about 2-3.5 hours between each 10-15 minute feed. Then this evening he fed at 7:45 than 11:45 (you hear me mother? That's 4 hours!) and has fed for 6 minutes before spluttering, coming off and then falling asleep and not wanting to go back on, so I doubt he'll be too long before he's up again.

And housework? What housework? Barely a stitch getting done here. I did Hoover while DH was off over Easter. Oh, and I wiped my sideboard today with a baby wipe because it caught my eye that it was soooooo dusty. My Mum sweeps my wooden floors most times that she comes to visit because she's obsessed by them. I do do the ironing quite frequently though

• for the record I don't think attachment parenting is 'lentil weavy', I'm just making a point.

Piles wise Too it light be worth mentioning to a doctor to get some cream for it? They're quite good, although I've been applying cream and it hasn't really worked yet as they seemed better and then have come back. But I had them terribly after ds1 and it took a while for eberythjng to get back to normal, but it did. I'll be mentioning it at my 6 week check this week.

Pomme I thought Abbie was 'more' oldererererer than Ethan - it feels as if he's catching her up in age! I can only assume he's not and this is a trick of my baby brain! .

Well if he ain't going to feed anymore (and I've given him ample chance while I finish my mega-post ), I'm going back to sleep - or at least back to try and get him to sleep

biscuits pmsl at e's routine :o

Feeding wise f feeds for around 20 to 30 mins 7 to 8 times a day. Has started to go from 8pm to 3am as a long stretch and then do 3-4 hourly feeds but as the day goes on it gets to be mire frequent so we somehow get up to a total of at least 7 feeds.

Am lucky - my mum has no idea how often we fed and we 'didn't bloody sleep' and her standard answer is he looks very happy so whatever you are doing is working. Mil has 4 dc and 11 gc and says that all her dc did different stuff even though she did the same.

biscuits you are on fire. i am snorting giggling in a ladylike fashion at E's daily routine!

i know fil will be the same as last time asking when a feed is 'due' and telling us every time how it'll be much better once we have a routine etc. at least i know not to feel this time, he's just not got a clue. not sure about MIL, she spouted all sorts of drivel about bf and ended up getting a roasting from DH at some point when it stressed us out too much.

my mum will prob be ok. she seems to kind of get it now and has commented on wee babies she's met recently being made to wait or their mums getting rubbish help/info. she was told to feed me only every 4 hours and leave me to cry as a baby. :( i don't think she kept to it at home though. my dad will be happy as long as there are baby snuggles to be had!

hope all the mini Brookers are being kind tonight. :)

Thank goodness for you Mum and MIL talking some sense Neverenough

Jaggy I think my mum was told the same thing (but stuck to the advice rigidly!) I asked what you were supposed to do with this 4 hr thing if the baby woke up hungry after 2-3 hours? She said 'just pace up and down with them'

For 1-2 hours???

Aside from anything else, I've got better things to do with my time!

She does think its ok to leave them to cry though. We were driving home from the supermarket the other day and E decided he was hungry so was crying. Obviously I was going feed him as soon as we got home make him wait until his 4 hours were up but my mum was chatting away saying 'it's good for them to cry a bit, it exercises their lungs. It's fine unless they have a hernia'

There have been other things too where she'll be looking after him (maybe if I've nipped to the loo) and I've heard E crying (not always hungry) and I'll come down and she'll be, for example, just sort of jiggling the pram, or going 'shush shush' but won't actually pick him up. She thinks picking babies up 'if they should be asleep' is BAD and that this is why people have babies that don't sleep.

I should say, mostly my mum is fine, she's just stuck on this idea

i did have a hernia actually! so did DS but it went away by itself. it seemed to be his windy tummy and crazy poo squeezing that made it pop out, once his wee digestive system settled down it seemed to help and he avoided the surgery.

my pil are the same about baby picking up. they look after DN a lot and we were often over visiting with baby DS. quite a few times DH picked her up for a snuggle when they just kept pushing the pram or doing the jiggle thing. i have a lovely photo of her asleep on his shoulder drooling happily!

hope you don't mind me sneaking on here for a chat with the night shift! I'm going back to sleep soon, honest...

might have to take more paracetamol, this sore throat is doing my head in.

Of course we love having any visitors here for the night shift Jaggy, although of course I wish that you weren't feeling poorly enough to be awake.

Won't be long until you're here doing your own night shift anyway

Eeek about the hernia though . Glad it was all ok.

The son of one of my parents friends had a hernia as a baby and it was touch and go as to whether he made it. They never knew until what it was he was hospitalised and operated on, but they were told to christen him at the hospital 'just in case' . Fortunately he was ok.

mine and DS were just wee umbilical hernias, quite common i think. DS's looked quite impressive and blue at his 8 week check so he was referred to hospital, by the time the appointment came, it had gone. i do have a photo of him in his nappy where you can see it, I'm sure he'll be entertained by it when he's big. i think in my day they stuck a penny over it or something!

going to be good and put my phone off now! night night :)