July 2010: Drool it, maul it, crawl over it - that's how our threadbabes would eat a creme egg. But why the Creme Egg?!

[CakeandRoses]

Will that do us?

/panic

Ooooh, blimey, I wish I hadn't said anything now. It's all taken a turn for the morose. I'm really not sure whether I ought to post the following, because I'm sure I'm going to break a whole host of unwritten rules. Please take it in the spirit it's intended- I'm not having a go or attacking anyone in this group- I think you're all incredible women, and certainly don't want to cause any offence.

The pressures we're talking about simply don't affect me the way they seem to so many others, because I refute and despise the modern idea of the role of a woman. Women are expected now to be everything- to fulfil all the duties of a women, while proudly honing the competitiveness and ambition of a traditional male role too, and frankly, i think it's stupid. I don't want to get into a debate about it because I would probably make myself extremely unpopular, but basically the more "rights" women seem to win, the more unhappy we get. I think the pressure on girls to go to university and dedicate their lives to a career is far more wrong than the pressure to look nice, which is, after all, human nature. I tend to dislike anything which tries to overcome human nature. Lets be clear, the preasure to go uni and havea career made me far more miserable and the acheivement of it gave me far less pleasure than meeting and marrying a man I adore.

I do think that the fashion industry's obsession with annorexic models is stupid, not because of the image they project to young people, but simply because I don't think they look nice. I'm sick of opening a magazine and not knowing whether the model I'm looking at is male or female. That said, it's natural for men to be attracted to slight women, because their base instincts make them want to feel big and strong. That thing about how they're supposed to love us no matter how big we get is all well and good, but actually, I think if I should make the effort to look good for anyone, it's H. He married a slim, pretty woman to whom he was attracted. If I'd been the size I am now when he'd met me, we probably wouldn't have got together in the first place. I don't think that having a baby is a good enough excuse to let myself go- it doesn't cost any time or money not to eat cake, it just takes will power and lets be honest, if I get my figure back, DH will be more attracted to me than he is now, and that will make me feel good. I know that if he got fat, I wouldn't fancy him as much as I do now. I would still love him, but I wouldn't want to have sex with him, which must be damaging to a relationship.

I cant stand listening to women going on about how they're "rejecting the pressure to conform" and therefore stop shaving, get fat, and make no effort whatsoever with their appearance and then expect us to applaud them for it. If that's how you like to look, fair play, but please don't act as though you're morally superior because of it.

If I think about my friends, I'm probably the happiest, most contented woman I know, and yet I find myself biting my tongue all the time, because actually, if I were to properly speak my mind, I would probably be completely stigmatized. Yes, there are far too many pressures on modern women, but I don't think the pressure to be beautiful is the "bad" one.

Rant ranty rant rant. I hope I haven't overstepped the line.

I have NEVER left the house without a face painted on even on a thursday when I leave home at 6am. I never read fashion mags, or want to be like a celeb but I do people watch, wanting the perfect arse, stomach etc but im not prepared to stave for it.
DH loves me for me, he wouldnt care if I was the size of a house as long as he knew I was trying to do something about it, I feel like a wobbly blob of a woman, I hate my chins I cry when I go out as I dread people having to look at me.I love making our house a home, he would be happy with a sofa,tv and a bed and cot and nothing else, I love cooking but dh would be just as happy with micro meals, this is what he lived on all his life before I came along, he wouldnt care if I wore tracksuit bottoms everyday if I was happy, one thing that upsets him and will end us if I dont change at some point is my self esteem, the way I feel about myself/talk about myself really gets him down as he loves me how I am but he knows nothing he says will change the way I look at myself.
Oh I do the male role too, I tinker with the car, and do the DIY but thats because im a control freak and can frankly do a better job that most men, I was taught to tile, wallpaper, fix cars etc by 15 as we had no one to do it for us!!! I will teach L to fix cars, wire plugs, bake cakes and iron! dh can only cook supernoodles

Jeez, TSC, sad? Im one of life's grazers, and will quite happily eat a packet of biscuits without thinking or even really noticing. If I write down everything I eat, it simply makes me pay more attention to what I'm having. I'm hardly a psychotic OCD nutter, scrawling down everything that passes my lips and getting on the scales 20 times a day!
I do agree with you wholeheartedly about too many people going to uni. I think that really only top 10% of the country should win a place, and that for that 10% it should be free, regardless of income. I do think that for women, however, motherhood is no longer presented as a viable option and that makes me angry. There is a tendancy now for women who actually chose to stay at home because they want to to be regarded as golddiggers, which is not only unkind, but it completely undermines the value of the work they do. Before I had Gwen, I often had to put up with very snidey remarks about being a housewife, and I wish that women who chose to dedicate themselves to their families could get proper credit for it, rather than being regarded as inferior for not managing to work "as well" . I would like for my daughters to grow up wanting to be mothers, but of course, one can't leave school and start looking for a husband as the world isn't actually run by Jane Austen. I hope that they find a job which they enjoy before they get m arried, but I would like for marriage and motherhood to be the ultimate goal, not marriage, motherhood and then back to work. Now, I'm not stupid, I understand that in fact for most families a dual income is a necessity these days and that makes me very sad.
Also, I don't think that I need my own money at all. I get my housekeeping once a month, and If H receives a large royalty cheque, I often get a "bonus" which is always a lovely surprise, but I don't see that there is a huge difference between the money I get from H and a salary one receives from an employer. Marriage isn't that different from a contract of employment, if one looks at it really objectively. Of course, I know that not all men can afford to support a wife, and it worries me- I hate the thought of women having to leave their children before they feel ready, just to make ends meet.

Memphis- it's horrible that you feel so bad about yourself, and i really do understand how you feel. I wish I could tell you that there was a magic solution to feeling bad about oneself, but in my experience the only thing that ever really made a difference was grabbing the bull by the horns and doing something about it. I just chose the stupidest method! It's great that you have such a supportive partner though and I think you've hit the nail on the head whn you say that he wouldn't care what size you were, as long as he knew you were trying to do something about it- I think any loving partner should feel the same way. What bother's me is the idea that because I'm married with a child, I no longer ought to feel obliged to make any effort, as though I've somehow filled my end of the bargain- a few of my friends have said as much since G was born, and I find it a very odd attitude.

It's so easy to loose one's perspective when you work in our industry- appearences are everything in theatre. H habitually works with beautiful young women, often in states of undress, and almost everyone we work with is obsessed with the way they look. I have to be careful about my apperance, because, not to put too fine a point on it, I don't want him to be thinking about one of his actresses when he's making love to me.

Not all of us can be the stereotype 'beautiful'. I look crap when I put makeup on, my hair is ridiculously bendy and frizzy and my natural body shape is more short and muscular. DH however somehow finds me gorgeous and sexy even after 2 children and a stone heavier than I should be. We fell in love 1000s of miles apart so we both loved each other for who we were, without being able to look at each other and critique weight/tone/height/body odour. I was 2 stone heavier than my ideal weight when we actually met face to face and he still loved me. I'm secure in the knowledge that he loves Me, not what I look like or dress like. That doesn't mean I don't make an effort to look lovely for him, but that's because I love him, not because I'm either worried that he'll stop loving me or because it makes me feel good.
Some people (like me) hate being a 'housewife'. I hate ironing, hoovering, dusting, and making beds but I love baking and mothering. Some people find mothering drives them up the wall and I'd never tell them that they'd be more content staying at home when actually getting out and working is what suits their personality.
It's horses for courses.
I think putting pressure on women to look a certain type of beautiful is bad because a lot of it is unattainable for a lot of women.
Waffle waffle waffle, I lost myself somewhere there :)
As for 'it just takes willpower', there isn't enough willpower in the world to stop me from making these beauties and that's why I can't shift this bloody stone.
That's just my opinion though!

Please, please don't get me started on wives getting given housekeeping allowances...

I'm changing the subject quick!

How many of us have walking babies?
How many of us have AF back?
How many of us have more than 2 teeth? (babies that is, I wouldn't want to put any of the 'oldies' on the spot )

Just a mini survey cos I'm nosey, S isn't walking but will walk holding one hand if he's in the mood, he's got 4 teeth but only just and I don't have AF back yet.

needle I'm not getting at you, reading it back it sounds like I'm throwing down the gauntlet but I'm not. Sorry if I sound antagonistic, I really don't mean it that way!

chulita I dont get an allowance. I agree about certain types of beautiful! If i walked in the bedroom in stockings and suspenders dh would not like it I honestly think he wouldnt tell if I wore that sort of thing or mismatched cotton knickers!! if I walked into the house in a 50's style prom dress with bows etc he wouldnt think its beautiful he hates fuss and faff which is lucky as so do I!!! he thinks I look my nicest wearing a tshirt and linen trousers.(which is lucky)
The will power think is not all I need, I have cut out so much and the only cakes I make are butterless ones, I dont eat much treats, given up biscuits, dont drink pop any more I excercise everyday and I still wont lose an ounce, my doc says since baby my metabolism has altered.

survey, I have a walking baby

I havent had AF in years

and L only has 2 bloody teeth even though you have been able to see the full set under his gums for 6 months!!!

Oh, gosh Chulita, no offence taken at all! Like you said, horses for courses. There are however a few misconceptions that I'd like to clear up.
-There is no such thing as a perfect image of beauty to which every woman should aspire. Every woman suits a different look, however, I think that a wife who loves her husband should take pride in looking her best for him, no matter what that best maybe. I think the same applies to husbands too, by the way. i try to look the way H finds me most attractive- he happens to have rather specific tastes, in part because of the industry in which he works. Some men have much broader tastes, and there are times when I'm very envious of their wives! I would never try and convince anyone that they should look like Cerly Cole. Some women look stunning slightly grungy, some women are naturally classic and classy, I happen to like a particular vintage era. I think the wag generation has an awful lot to answer for, frankly, and that an serious injection of class would benefit the fashion industry. And i'm from Essex.

-Any man who "fell out of love" with his wife because she put on weight would be, in my oppinion, a total w*er. However people have relatively little control over what attracts them and what turns them on and I feel very sorry for people who's partner; male or female changes to a physical appearance to which the other isn't attracted. It must be very hard to love someone desperately, but no longer fancy them and I would hate to put H in that unenviable position.

• I HATE all of the following: dusting, hoovering, washing up, laundry, ironing, mending , changing the bed and traipsing round the supermarket. I love baking, sewing, seeing my friends, knitting, playing with the baby and all the other fun aspects of motherhood, but how many men, do you think, do their job because they love it and for no other reason? In my experience, men encounter just as much stress and drudgery in their jobs, but work because they have to, whether to support a family or themselves alone. I don't like the image we have of motherhood now in which all the people in offices are doing fulfilling, exciting work and coming home to desperate, lonely housewives. I have a lot more freedom in my work than H does in his, because I can do my work whenever I like and no one is going to fire me for missing a deadline or getting in late. I think almost every job has aspects of drudgery in it.

-With motherhood come certain responsibilities. My own oppinion is that I would never go back to work until my children were all at school. Once children are at school during the day, i think the "rules" become very different, but where small children are concerned, while I have no problem with mothers who work because their financial situation demands it, i have a slight issue with going back to work simply because one is sick of "mothering"

• I have no problem at all with being given houskeeping. H pays all the bills, I pay for general running of the house, but how i spend it is entirely up to me as long as no one goes hungry.

again, I have absolutely no desire to cause offence- I am aware that my oppinions are very controversial and I'm used to discussing them with far ruder people than you lot. FWIW, I have no idea why I'm such a throwback.

Gwen is walking
I got AF back 4 months ago
She has 7 teeth

xxx

good, I'm glad I didn't offend you. I'm ridiculously hard to offend and because of that I regularly offend others by saying things that I don't see a problem with. Since marrying into DH's family I've realised that some people actually do get offended so I like to make sure.
Fwiw I agree with a lot of what you say, esp re drudgery. Very few people have jobs that don't require them to do something they don't like every now and then.
So two walking so far, any advances?

I'm going to try and drop S's night feed(s) starting tonight. Last night he slept 6pm til 5.30am so I reckon now's as good a time as any.

mlic it's not a fairytale :) , our families have known each other since before we were born but we lived in Madagascar so we didn't grow up together. Every 4 years or so when we came back to England for a visit/rest the families would get together so we have a few photos of us both doing stuff at different ages but with large gaps in between. We weren't friends, we just tagged along when our parents got together, which wasn't often tbh cos our dads don't get on.
When I was at uni I went to Mexico for a year and spoke to DH the day before I left (first time I'd spoken to him in over a year cos he was working in a different city and was only there cos he'd recently returned from Bosnia and was seeing his parents). He gave me his email address in case I got lonely and said he'd write while I was away. We went from emailing once a week-ish to emailing every day within a couple of months.
I decided to book a flight home for Christmas so we could get to know each other but a week before I came back he got sent on a rush job to Iraq. We kept emailing til June when I finished work and got back. He'd already decided he wanted to marry me but I wanted to spend time with him to see what he was like in rl.
We went on a church holiday two weeks after I got back from Mexico and he slept between my tent and my parents' tent under a tarp just cos he could. Pretty much every morning I woke up to him talking with my dad and chuckling and I fell properly in love with him that week. We were happily thinking about getting married and ticking along then he got sent on another rush job in Sept which put us back. He got shot on his birthday in Oct and was flown home, got engaged in Dec, I finished uni in June and got married a week later.
I love that we got to know each other without actually having any of the pressure of being together, no expectations of how fast we should be moving etc, we spent the best part of 9 months just chatting.

Wow, it's actually really interesting to hear things from a completely different perspective, Needle! :)

My household appears to be everything you dislike... I went back to work as soon as SMP stopped because a) We couldn't afford to live without my salary as DH and I earn the same and b) I got sick of "mothering". Or more accurately I was mostly getting bored at home and figured M would benefit more from the opportunities and activities provided by a nursery, rather than being stuck at home with me.

I never wear warpaint makeup unless I have to (i.e. interview/wedding) and I doubt my DH would notice/care if I wore the latest fashions or threw on a pair of paint marked baggy jeans and an old t-shirt like today. He tells me frequently that I'm beautiful (he's lying!) but also tells me regularly that he loves how smart/organised/creative/etc I am. :)

As for gender roles, we're almost completely opposite from the norm. He does the majority of cooking and cleaning, whereas I do the DIY and maintenance.

Anyway, as for Chulita's mini survey...

Walking: She's barely mastered crawling, and only just started pulling herself up on things.
AF: Yep... Been back since 4 months despite me feeding until nearly 7 months. I think because M slept through at night quite early.
Teeth: Just one... I'm vaguely hoping all the rest'll come through in one big rush and we'll just have one period of teething to deal with. [naive]

Spirael- It's quite nice for me to get the opportunity to talk about it honestly. I swear, I would find it easier to talk about if DH and I were swingers than I do talking about the nature of the relationship we do have- people expect me to be either as thick as s**t or a complete mental vintage "lifestyler" when in fact i'm neither. I can understand that they way I live isn't for everyone, but I also believe quite passionately that a lot of women would be happier if they didn't feel morally obliged to carry on like the lovechild of June Cleaver and Deborah Meaden. But, as i said, I have no issue with mothers who go back to work for financial reasons, as long as they feel ready to, but I hate the idea of a woman having to leave her baby before she feels ready.
(I really don't care whether you wear makeup or not!!)

wowee, have i missed a shitstorm on here when i was merrily out walking and then roastdinnering?!

needle i snorted at 'I would find it easier to talk about if DH and I were swingers'

in some ways we're similar but our views on women are poles apart. I love things to look as beautiful as possible, not for any reason than i'm a visual/designery person and it's what makes me feel happy and fulfilled - dh couldn't care less what i or the house look like. he's very romantic and thoughtful but rarely pays me a compliment other than 'you look nice' when he remembers and 'i think you always look beautiful' when i complain he doesn't notice what i wear etc.

i too LOVE mothering, cooking/baking and generally running the house but i detest any form of cleaning. unfortunately i love things to be clean hence why i prioritise having a cleaner over any other luxury and why dh will always have to 'help out' round the house too.

i also feel strongly that for the benefit of us as a family i want to be at home the majority of the time whilst they're small. i sometimes struggle emotionally with the 20 hours a week i will work but i know there are benefits which make it worthwhile, not least that i want to be able to have a career when they're both in school. that's much harder for women when they've had many years out of the workplace - sad and unfair but true. why should bright, creative women end up doing the low-paid, mundane, unfulfilling jobs, which for many is the only option after years as a sahm?

i also don't understand why solely because he's a man, dh would be best placed to manage our finances or entitled to decide how much 'housekeeping' he gives me.

chul that is the most romantic start to a relationship i've heard in ages. what an amazing story. how badly was dh shot?!

How many of us have walking babies? Nope, still just coasting round furniture but adores walking holding our hands, hasn't quite graduated to one hand tho

How many of us have AF back? Had 2

How many of us have more than 2 teeth? 4

xposted you mlic

what was the book?

re our nonexistant book club, i hadn't mentioned it cos a) the book choices so far weren't proving (understandably) popular and b) i haven;t made/had time to read a book or go to the club in RL

This month's book is Fortune's rocks by anita shreve if there are any takers?

tis www.amazon.co.uk/Fortunes-Rocks-Anita-Shreve/dp/0349112762/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307301746&sr=8-1 this one]]

bf: 3 times a day (7amish, 7.15pm, 11.30pm)

A still lies on her side across me

mostly she's quite well-mannered now altho she did an awful pinch earlier as she's unsettled and grappling around due to teething. she hasn't bitten in a month or so and has never been a hair-puller.

she's been much more civilised since i reduced her feeds so she really wants the three she does have.

wtf is calf-like (imagining tsc on all fours with fongles suckling beneath her )

Cake- housekeeping was worked out on a consultation and a period of trial and error- it's not like he just leaves the money by the bed and expects me to make it last! Any big purchases (like the new carseat, new pram etc) he pays for and if the housekeeping runs short, I tell him and he put some extra into the joint account. He runs the finances becuase a) he deals with all the large scale outgoings and the business b) he's far better with money than I am and c) he earns the money. Plus, because of the nature of our income, it isn't regular- we never know when money is going to come in, from where, or how much it's likely to be. We do know that we're likely to get a bump after Christmas/ summer holidays or a new book launch though. I could never manage as well as he does, and it works really well with me getting a regular sum and bonuses when they're available- tbh, my money is more like a salary than his!

TSC- don't even get me started on single mothers. I think the job they do is absolutely incredible. I can't even imagine how much more difficult that must be than what I do and I have so much respect for them. I hate the way society looks down on single mothers (and single fathers for that matter)
I understand what you mean about the balance of power- I don't know how our relationship would change if I were to go back to work, especially as I've not worked since we married, and we were only together for 7 months and lived together for 2 months before we did.

Bear in mind- this is all I've ever known. I left uni summer 2008, started working FT and left home to move to london spring 2009, met DH summer 2009 and got married Feb 2010. If I hadn't met DH I might never have found the courage to leave my abusive fiance of 5 years and would probably have ended up leaving my job to move with him to Nottingham for his work (a job he stuck for 4 months, before running home to mummy and daddy) I shudder to think how my life would have turned out had I not met him, he literally saved me from so much anguish and misery. I know the way we live isn't for most people, but honestly, I adore my life and wouldn't have it any other way. A "friend" told me she pitied me recently, and it honestly broke my heart that she could be so narrow minded.

chulita and Mlic- I love both those stories. I think getting together stories are always romantic TBH.

He was shot in the ankle/foot, by some miracle the bullet grazed one side and a piece of shrapnel hit the other. It was a 7.62 round which is freaking huge but somehow only resulted in him hobbling around for a few weeks. If either the bullet or the shrapnel was a 1/4 of an inch closer to him he'd have lost his foot. A mate dug the bullet out of the wall afterwards and he's got it in a urine sample bottle on our bookcase.
mlic proposed on Valentine's day eh? A true romantic :)

tsc 4-5 feeds a day/night, feeding in the 'missionary position' aka me cuddling, him gnomping, he bats/scratches and lately rolls around.

I'm starting sleep training tonight if I can face it, let the crying commence!

I'm in the middle of a book at the mo, and I'm focusing on knitting L a ballerina top so haven't had much reading time recently.

cake I may well take you up on the photoshop offer, I'll have another look at it and see if I can ignore the belly (unlikely) and if I actually like the pic that much. I'm not much of a photographer, esp with a cheap camera and my gorilla pod