Dec 2008 - Hello 2011 the Year of the Toddler!

[DeidreBarlow]

Totally unispired but hope you all find it...

Gosh I cross posted loads I will stop with my rants now. Lady I found this link from UNICEF.

And yes Effie it is nice to have a respectful debate. I think if we get away from assuming that being pro BFing is not anti formula, and vice versa then it is all a lot nicer.

Cross postastic, to quote that dirty formula feeding Pubie .

I mean cross post-tastic

Vag

I think Rubes that sadly, seeing bf or ff as the norm depends on the socio-economic group and there are rather more of the lower end of the scale than the higher end. Many of the villages around here are pretty deprived and unfortunately a lot of stereotypes are playe dout at toddler groups! I'm sure that not being able to bf is very difficult to come to terms with when you have tried so hard to make it work. I know that supply can be a genuine issue.

Interestingly my gran never produced a drop of milk although she would have loved to bf. As a result she was pretty poor support for my mother who found herself being told to feed fro 10 mins either side every 4 hours nad of course ended up with a very hungry baby and supply issues so my sister and I were both ff after the first couple of weeks. Thankfully I am useless at decision making so had not got round to thinking about it too much or spending money on bottles by the time ds was born. Expect I probably went into a shop, thought "how much?!" and left it for another day

I'm abnormal (which is above normal you know ) but I did want to be normal

I know what you are saying, Vag, but I think there is a fine line between the info which you say is necessary, and the patronising tone of some of that info (such as you describer Winnicott initiating).

As for 'best', well I still think it automatically incapsulates the idea of a range of options. But as you say, all these sorts of phrases are problematic. It is very very tricky. I am not sure I know what the right answer is. Gosh, I wish I did.

My gosh, just seen JJ's news, I hope you are ok JJ and are getting the birth you want. Does anyone know exactly how many weeks JJ is???

Interesting BF debate. It's funny that the BFers don't feel they are in the majority in the UK and the FFs don't feel they are. I live in a very middle class NCT influenced area. My impression was that when preggers everyone wanted to give BF a try, everyone I know did so, but most found they had real problems with latch or supply and I guess about 75% were mix feeding or FF within a month. Once the mix feeding started most stopped BFing at all within another month or so. Therefore I felt unusual to be BFing in public as I got towards and beyond six months.

The point I find interesting is that 75% of my friends had problems with latch or supply so introduced formula. In cultures where BF is really the norm very, very few people report these problems. In Scandenavia it's something like 2% of mothers who can't feed. Scandinavian women aren't biologically different so How come they don't have the same level of physical problems with BF? It must be down to information provision and support.

Avo, I think JJ was due on Valentine's Day so I guess a month!

Crossposting loads here so going to shut my cakehole (plus I am still in my pyjamas and have to get myself sorted!) but Kiwi, I do worry that 'natural' and 'normal' become YET ANOTHER STICK with which to beat mothers. I agree wholeheartedly with the need to provide support and information to all mothers. I think bf mothers need extra special support. But labels, catchphrases, value judgements...they aren't ever going to sit well with me, I guess. There's only one 'should' in all this in my opinion: that women should have the right to make an informed decision on how feed their babies, and the support to so do.

Gosh how lovely to come on and see a nice non shouty BF V FF. Have to say I did BF both my fellas but its mainly because I am a stubborn individual that I continued to BF through TT and bleeding nips. Because of forums like mumsnet and the fact that I think I too was a little like Indith and thought how much for formula and bottles. I also was very lucky that my first NCT group had a BF councellor as a teacher so I called on her help. As the NHS was pants and I got no advice from them atall. Amongst my peers when in London we all breastfed when I moved out to Essex and had DS2 I was looked upon as weird for BF and several people did tell me they thought it was odd. The stuff in the press today well I only saw a 5 min snippet on BBC breakfast saying about how you could harm your baby to exclusivley BF to 6mth. So I cant really comment too much but was a bit shocked by the one sided alarmist reporting of it on the news.

Anyway no news from JJ hope she is birthing away.

More dog sad news here. Took our pooch back to the vets for his follow up check and the vet was ok with everything then I mentioned a small lump on his nose which had recently appeared and it looks like it is cancer. Am so terrified it is what are we going to do if he is poorly I just cant face making that sort of decision. I keep weeping at the thought of it. Louis is soo much DS2 love. The roll around the floor together all the time. He has to go back in on Monday to have it removed then we will find out a week later. Am so so so sad didnt realise how much I loved the stupid mutt.

Avo yes in Scandinavia pretty much the only ones who do not bf are those rare women like Rubes who cannot or those on drugs that are contraindicated. They must have much better support. They also have more flexible parental leave which I think must help. I have read on here that formula is not at all stigmatised and that it is perfectly normal to give a bottle of formula if you are leaving the baby at home and going for a night out etc. It would be interesting to know the truth of that as here you get the whole "but what about the virgin gut? My baby has never had a drop of formula I am a much better mother than you" thing. I felt terrible giving dd formula when I left her to go run Rainbows but expressing just set my oversupply issues off and turned every feed into a screaming fight for the next few days until it settled down and I had to express for the next time.

I think until relatively recently Scandinavia had terrible bf rates and they managed to turn things right around. I'd love to know more. Will have to spend some quality time with google but right now I have just stuck a video on so I can clean the house. MIL coming tomorrow!

Oh Jam :(

Sorry to hear about your dog, Jam :(. Fingers crossed all is well.

I hadn't realised that HVs weren't allowed to advise on ff. Bonkers.

Indith: my MIL is arriving tomorrow too so I will be cleaning the kitchen tonight rather than collapsing in front of the telly. Bah .

That's interesting about attitudes in London v Essex, Jam. All the mums I knew in London started bfing. Here there's more of a mix, but I also know at least 1 woman who is bfing her preschooler. There are a lot of hippy types though .

Jam, so sorry about your dog. I'm thinking of him and hope he will be ok.

Indith, You had an over supply issue? I'm not a "rare woman" believe me. Oh with this subject I'm bowing out.

Oh my word, JJ! Thinking of you and hoping all is well.

Lurking and reading along but have run out of time for a post.

Midwife thinks this bubs is breech AGAIN. For the love of.....I'm 33 weeks. Have made rush visit to chiropractor as they supposedly can help turn breech babies by making adjustments to the pelvis. My pelvis is definitely dodgy and very sore in pregnancy - it actually does feel better after seeing the chiro once. But as for baby turning - doubt it. Come on baby...flip around and let me hope for that VBAC!

Crossing everything for the hound, Jam. I know how a dog is part of the family.

Oh golly, think I'd be out on a limb in Scandinavia then Hmm, can see though how it would be irritating for women in UK who have tried everything /demoralising to hear that in other countries people seem to manage. It all sounds a bit rum. Mind you, it all seems so variable (I mean, it happens apparently easily for some mothers, and not for others - and even differently with different kids!)

Golly, I wonder how JJ is getting on.

Hurray you got the passport stuff, Rubes. We sent off DD2's application last Thurs, and her birth cert was returned today and I don't think the passport will be far behind, so it doesn't look like a busy spell.

LadyT absolutely - informed choice is what it's all about

JJ somehow managed to miss the drama - how are you doing!?

Jam I think the main reason I am still feeding DD is because she is a very stubborn individual. Where could she get it from? [hmm now where's my mirror]

Rubes Im sorry if I've offended calling you "rare", I certainly don't mean to. I just find it all rather interesting and for a woman to truely have under supply issues when everything else is as it should be is rare I think.

But yes, I had over supply issues. Abundant milk with both dcs (although the first weeks with dd I struggled with undersupply. Was also struggling to get rid of post partum infection. Perhaps there was a link there.) but where ds just got on with the job and pulled off to let it spray around if it got too much dd screamed. A lot. I could only feed her lying down for ages so couldn't feed outside the home. Took several months for her to feed without screaming and several more for feeding to become something nice and comforting rather than just shoving nutrition down. I think she was around 9 months or so before she began to feed for comfort. In both the early weeks with under supply and then later with her screaming at me I think if I had not already fed a child and know that I could do it I would have given up.

I suppose what we have to remember is that in this country we are largely dependant on very variable advice from HCPs but in places where bf is the norm women grow up knowing how to bf because they are surrounded by it and they have their mothers, grandmothers, sisters etc to help them so I guess the higher the bf uptake the less you need bf support from the state. Quite how to get to that point I don't know!

Now for a more important question, why on earth do MIL visits make us clean so much? Have done bedrooms. Why? She isn't even staying the night! Chances are she won't even go upstairs let alone in a bedroom!

Thanks everyone I feel stupid being so upset.

DOnt go there with the MIL when mine comes to stay when we go to NY I swear it will be 48hrs worth of cleaning, and I would say I am generally quite houseproud but I cnat bare the looks of oh sticky mark on the highchair. Which I am sure I imagine but anyway I will be knuckling down and washing walls etc when she comes.

Oh its kicking off after that BBC thing, I didn't see it but apparently the brought up that old chestnut the iron in BM after 6 months a perfect case in point for ill informed hcp. Many HV still believe that BM has no iron in it after 6 months so babies should be given solids in earnest. exactly how much iron they think a baby can extract I don't know. I agree with the patronizing hcps lady, I have listened to many who have mad me want to vomit. I actually believe the less they know the more patronizing they are. that bfn course I did, a large part of the training delt with communications skills, basically how not to speak to grown women like they are imbeciles and how to just LISTEN!!! Sometimes that is all that is needed.

now in other news Spot, I read your post at the gym this morning and nearly cried, my dads name was Joseph William and it is now my nephews name. I give permission for either.

kiwi, I give DS2 lollipops and biscuits occasionally* as it just keeps the piece. the difference between doing that and you giving BM is lollipops and biscuits are junk whereas BM is omegas protein vit and Finland a load of other stuff we still don't understand. don't beat yourself up.about it.

Oh Jam poor doggie. Hope he/she is ok.

On the BFing thing, why do we need to have a "Breast is X" slogan anyway?! I think both "best" and "Normal" have their drawbacks. I think the key must be helping those who have surmountable problems feed if they want to. Of which there are loads. Also bloody NCT classes at least for people I have spoken to just spouted a load of stuff about why breast is best, etc, but fuck all on all the problems you can have. And everyone has the same old problems - establishing supply, knowing it's normal to feed all the time, latch problems, tongue tie, sore nipples, mastitis. Why don't they teach you about this stuff? Also seems it's important to teach safe formula feeding as well.

On the normalizing breastfeeding thing, I guess it is something that can't happen overnight as so many of our opinions on what's normal are passed down from parents, etc. Would be interesting to know what Scandanavia did to change this. Interesting you feel that people might be looking at you re bottle feeding LadyT. I feel they are looking at me weird for bfing, especially as DD gets older.

On the MIL thing, thank goodness, though she wouldn't like me saying, MIL is a bit of a scruff bag when it comes to houseproudness. So I don't really clean any more than normal. However, she is a cooking obsessive, so I always feel the need to cook loads of stuff so that it looks like I am feeding her darling son ok/looking after him. Sad really isn't it? Especially as she inevitably finds some way to take over my kitchen anyway!

Ooh I hope jj is doing ok.

I meant to add an * being that my definition for occasionally may be a little different from others. Also I would just like to say there are many good things in BM but I'm pretty sure Finland is not one of them. That should have been minerals.

Oh and Jam I'm very sorry about poor Pooch, big cuddles to him.

No offended Indith, it just brings up how frustrating a time it was for me, as I wasn't one of those stupid young mothers who want to FF just to have a hassle free night out (despite my fondness for cheerfulness)

Our situation is reversed. MIL is messy messy messy and I'm the tidy/clean freak!

Jam I'd be exactly the same if not worse if it were my Ruby, but I'm hopeful for Louis. DS is the same, well they have a love hate relationship, but sometimes I walk in the room and he's just sitting there stroking her or vacuuming her with the dog groom attachment (but not attached)