Dec 2008 - Hello 2011 the Year of the Toddler!

[DeidreBarlow]

Totally unispired but hope you all find it...

Hi Spot, how are things going?

WG: thinking of you today xx

Hiya, ok ta Effie, much better on the sleep front since we introduced swaddle and dummy. And only spewing about one feed in 4 which is a great improvement. Got a doc appt today about the laryngo malacia (as apparently it is called according to the doc I spoke to yesterday). Likelihood is that it's not serious but that the noise will prob continue up to age one and he'll be more prone to URT infections. Oh well, his older bro can teach him all about that! We're also registering him today, DP still wants Joseph but it ain't gonna happen!

Back later, lots of love to WG.

so, cx have slowed right down but still have to go to hosp owing to earliness. Meanwhile DH has got the tummy bug I had the other day, and DD tripped over the end of her bed and had a nosebleed all over his shirt! [checks diary, is it actually Friday 13th...?]

A quickie for Spot as I was thinking of you earlier when I heard about BF on the news this morning. They said the current recommendation is 'if it is possible and it works for mother and baby, breast is best'. If BM is causing reflux, is it working? I don't want you to think I'm suggesting you stop, as I think you're doing an amazing job pumping, but I remembered you saying that you felt as if you needed permission to stop, if you still feel that way, then your permission was granted by none other than the Today programme. Big kisses to the lovely B, and T too. And hello to everyone else, will catch up soon xx

Lots of love JJ, good luck and remember to stay relaxed. Calming birthing vibes to you.

Crikey, just spotted Jump's post, thinking of you and wishing you lots of luck, if this is it. If not, take it as a sign for lots of rest and being looked after xx

Thanks, ZJ, I heard it as well - makes for very interesting listening. I remember telling my mum how horrified I was that she weaned my sister at 3 months and she basically said "just you wait they'll change the guidelines again soon enough".

I have basically stopped pumping too as it was just making me sad that it didn't seem to help him and I wasn't able to provide the milk the way I wanted to. I think it'll take me a while to stop feeling sad about it but must focus on the positives - I had 7 hours sleep last night as DP did the night shift .

Rubes, how is your poorly DS today? Have the ABs helped overnight?

Good luck JJ :).

Spot: that sounds like good progress! Hope the GP is helpful. Have you moved DS2 now?

X-posted: Spot, I do think you have made the right decision. Expressing may have helped the transition but it doesn't seem like a viable long-term solution. Give your lovely boy a cuddle from me and have a hug yourself :).

Have popped on to see how JJ is getting on and read about the breast is best thing. I'm sorry but that has just peeved me off no end. Firstly it is a bit of a plug for the NHS BIB programme, which is well meaning but unfortunately stocked with mentors who had perfectly easy BF experiences and no communication skills. At best they are nice and head patting BF glorifiers, at the are scary guilt inducing meanies. This notion that breast is best but if it doesn't work then oh well its ok really just induces more painful guilt. It doesn't help anyone and it still doesn't help parents make informed decisions. The baby milk charities and even the nct want to change the idea to breast is normal, and formula is one of the options available. If they do this it opens they way for parents to be given the information they need about all the available feeding options and the pros and cons of all feeding possibilities as well as the logistics of doing them (ie how to make up a bottle, what is in formula, that they are all the same etc). There is this notion that opening up conversations about ff will make more people use it. But the statistics show that 70% of mums who aren't BFing at 6weeks wanted to BF to but somehow couldn't and mostly due to no or bad support. There are 30% like Lady who didn't want to, and I imagine have a bloody hard time getting good information to make that choice. So why not have the support available, train midwives properly in lactation care (not just a 15minute video) & make formula information which includes the good and bad things available to all women. I believe if you make BF normal, not just this mysterious super power, best option thing more women will feel comfortable doing it as it is a normal function of their body.

Sorry rant over you may all carry on now. Sorry if non of the above makes any sense.

Bon chance JJ! Can't wait to hear! I know you didn't want to go into hospital but at least this time you know the ropes, as it were. Lots of love to you all.

Spot, I am thrilled for you about the sleep. You really needed that.

Vag, I am all for midwives being trained up to provide better bf support to those who need it. I realise that bm is nutritionally superior. But I am not entirely sure saying that bf is 'normal' helps massively - I mean, so ff is 'abnormal'?? It's a minefield, though, all that...I am hugely respectful of people's choices re: their kids but sadly there are so many people out there, (particularly on the feeding boards here) who are keen to demonise my choices. As to info, well, most people have the internet and could find out anything about anything at the flick of a key, but if the NHS don't trust people to find out for themselves or make their own minds up, info on feeding should be given early on in pregnancy, through the midwife or GP or whatever. (Disclaimer: it may already be given at this time but as I never saw a midwife, and my consultant deemed me perfectly capable of weighing it up in my own mind, I didn't get any until I saw the HV weeks later).

I'm with Vag on bf being "normal". I do think that the breast is best campaign and having MWs and HVs going on about it all the time can put people off. Lady of course it isn't saying that ff is abnormal but I think we need more information and fewer buzz words so that people can make informed decisions and that information needs to be that bf is the norm and that ff has some disadvantages when compared to the biological norm. Mothers should be treated as intelligent enough to weigh up these disadvantages in their own minds.

That is of course for "normal" cases where everything is going well. I think that if there were more good information about ff out there then it could also help in cases where things are not going well such as with Spot where ff is perhaps better. If the information were easier to get then surely that would help a worrying mother who is trying to decide if she should quit bf or not. If she is surrounded by breast is beast then I don't think that helps at all.

I don't know, Indith. I guess I think that'breast is best' at least implies there is a choice. 'Breast is normal' implies that any other way of feeding your baby is abnormal, freaky. So I think 'breast is best' gives one the impression that it is the best way of feeding out of more than one option available. And that's the case, right? Whereas 'breast is normal' is going to put woman who are considering ff 'outside the norm'. There is no hint of another option. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I dislike it as a phrase. But I guess with language, these things are all subjective.

Sorry, dd woke up screaming so not as coherent as it might have been.

I wanted to add that we all need to be able to be comfortable in our choices and that means having access to the information to make them, including information for ff but that information needs to be correct and consistant which at the moment it is not.

Consistent across what - the leaflets that people are provided with? I am not being stroppy here, I am genuinely curious about where these inconsistencies lie. Oh, I would also like to know if people DO get info from HCPs early in pregnancy (which is clearly what should happen!)

No I think it is interesting seeing the opinion of someone who ff through choice, I don't actually have any friends who have done so.

I think that saying that breast is normal is about changing perceptions. In Britain at the moment it isn't, ff is normal, people worry about bf in public. It shouldn't be like that. Unfortunately women turn away from bf for all sorts of reasons that simply should not exist. Many of those reasons are due to the support they get (or don't get) and misinformtaion from HCPs. For example "not enough milk" is very common, and women end up giving top ups and thus producing less milk when in a "breast is normal" society women are used to it, they see it all the time, they know that it is the biological norm and that their body will easily produce what they need. Many other women give up due to confidence in public, they don't want to feed in public but not leaving the house becomes too difficult so they give bottles in public and a down hill spiral starts. Again, if breast were normal and accepted there would be no need to feel as though they could not feed out of the home.

I don't want to lookdown on ff, it is a choice. We are very lucky to have such an effective substitute for times of need and for those who choose not to bf but I'd like to see an end to the perception that bf is a holy grail that few can achieve.

Information is not consistant because HCPs do not update their training. You stull get people saying it is ok to make up bottles with cooled water when it isn't. You still get HCPs spouting all sorts of rubbish about bf (and weaning and sleeping and lots of other things).

You do get some information in pregnancy but not much. YOu get your birth to five book and if you go to the NHS parent craft classes you get a bit more. Some hospitals run bf workshops but it is a lottery about whether yu get invited to one or not.

Well, I think that's all very interesting. Can I tell you, I haven't a clue what percentage of women bf against what percentage ff, in Britain. I would have thought more women bf, so am surprised to hear that's the case. But of course, it's simply that more women I KNOW bf, which is very different. I too only know of one other lady who ff through choice, other than me.

I am sorry that people worry about bf in public and agree it shouldn't be like that. I feel that, sometimes, people look askance at me when I am giving my baby a bottle, but I am philosophical about it. (Tbh I think the public like to look at/are nosey about babies, generally).

A girl I know who had a baby a couple of weeks after me was really struggling with bf. It didn't seem that the support was out there for her, I must say. In fact, I told her about La Leche League!

It's nice to see a bf/ff debate without any slanging! I think the majority start off with bf but a minority carry on for any length of time. For some of those it is the mother's informed choice which no-one would argue with. But for a lot of women it's because of stuff that can be fixed, or isn't actually a problem but they don't get the right support to carry on.

An eg from my family: I was told by my mum and my sister that bf was difficult and exhausting and that they didn't have enough milk to feed their babies so bottle fed. Then I had DS1 who wanted to feed every 2 hrs or less, but I had the info to know that it was normal and what I needed was support from DH so I could concentrate on resting and feeding. I bet that if my mum and sister had the same they would have carried on. No major issues, just a hungry baby who fed more often then 3-4 hrly.

And then there are numerous mums I e meant whose babies had TT which led to lots of pain and stopping bf. Again, medical support needed IF the mum wants to carry on with bf.

Lady I can see what you mean about the use of the word normal, my issue is if it not best then is it worst? I feel they are playing on wwomen wanting to provide the 'best' for their baby. Would the public look at someone bottle feeding and subconsciously see that as not the best. And I guess really we maybe shouldn't go in for use of these descriptions in the first place.

However, I'm with Indith on the inconsistencies. Basically in the health service with in the bounds of their job, no hcp can do anything to promote formula feeding, or anything to discourage breast feeding. This includes showing someone how to make up formula. Now we all know it happens, I've been told to stop BFing by GPs and a consultant, and there are loads of examples of well meaning hcps telling mums how to use formula. The problem is the information they give out is not regulated or monitored. I know of cases of MWs telling new mums to make up milk for a day old baby using bottled mineral water. These hcps can only draw on their own experience, to give out information. Also there are cons to ff and these are not given to women in a even unbiased manner, the information can be found on websites, yes, but some of these websites can be so pro-BF as to be intimidating. On the flip side they can come from websites hosted by the companies who would profit from the sale of formula. Not really going to be very unbiased, this is an.industry that fought tooth and nail not to have to provide a warning on their labels that formula is not sterile.

Basically I believe if we just provide all the information in a sensible way, and not assume that women are dim wits we will have the higher BF rates that the govt wants and happier mummies and babies. I also believe there would also be less stigma around bottle feeding and breastfeeding in public as a result.

Unfortunately there is a tradition of believing that women are too dim witted to make decisions about our babies. The famous Dr Donald Winnicott, was the first to recognise that breast feeding was important, and that indeed the first 2 years of a child's life is incredibly important to their development into a good citizen. However, he believed it was too important for mere women to be responsible for this period. So he set about making rules for BFing 'correctly' and providing leaflets to mothers on how to bring up there children. The beginnings of the parenting books and the end of using our instincts.

I should also say that I think ff mums get a raw deal too - there are all sorts of assumptions made about mums who choose to ff, whether that's from the beginning or after starting with bf. The bottom line is that no-one should be judged on making a considered and informed decision about what is best for their baby. The good news is that none of us do that, so we don't need to shout .

Initiation of bf is over 70% which is great, by 1 week it is down to around 45%, 20% at 6 weeks and by 6 months it is pretty negligable. That is for exclusive bf though. I think 25% of babies still get some bm at 6 months.

Yes, Effie, I am sure that's the case. And I guess it all boils down to the usual - ie the cash strapped NHS hasn't got the means to give proper feeding support across the board.

As you know, my sister and I were ff, but my sister bf both her kids and I didn't.

I do like a good debate. I cold honestly get interested enough to debate practically anything

Oh no, they can't change it to "BF is normal" first thing that popped into my head honestly before reading LadyT's post was that I'm being abnormal! Oh and Indith, I wouldn't say by any stretch that in Britian today FF is normal, otherwise the likes of me, wouldn't have been in tears at the HV after geting encouraged to FF and feeling like it was "OK" to do as much. I struggled both times with lack of supply - genuinely, and I didn't need a BF pro to tell me that - it was blatently obvious. If anyone ever the issue of low supply, it is often not possible to pick it up - I know, I tried everything. My mother had the same problem.

Spot, thanks for asking, his temp has come down but he is still really clingy and grouchy and miserable, until he has calpol or something and then he perks up for a short while, but still gets irritated really quickly with his toys, the dog, me, etc. he doesn't want me feeding dd either He had 2 yogurts today and a quarter of a tortilla wrap so he's on the mend!
So glad you got some much needed sleep in. Cheers for DP.

Lady, thanks so much. Sp delivery arrived and dh has an early day - finally so will be heading to PO to send it off when he gets home to take over looking after the patient here. Thanks again, and yes do let me know when you are free to get together. Look forward to it

Afternoon all. Very interesting debate re the BF thing. What worries me about it is that it will reinforce the perception that "my milk isn't enough" and therefore that people turn to formula earlier than they perhaps would have done or even wanted to.

And I have to say I think "breast is normal" is correct. It's not that formula is "abnormal" but it IS a breastmilk subsistute. A perfectly adequate substitute (though as I think Vag said a while ago, bet it would be better if medical companies developed it, not food ones!) but a substitute nonetheless.

Another thing I find very upsetting is the use of the phrase "the pro-breastfeeding lobby". I hear it time and time again. What IS this lobby?! Who benefits from it?! Many midwives and health visitors and the like may be poorly trained, or give poor advice, or appear smug or annoying or just plain ignorant - on breastfeeding and many other areas! - but it's a really weird idea that by promoting something natural and (what should be) that they somehow constitues a "lobby". Whereas formula and babyfood companies actually DO have lobbiests working for them in the EU and all over the place.

I just think this whole thing muddies the waters of an already emotionally confused, difficult conversation.

LadyT this research goes back to 2000 so rates may have changed slightly (though probably not much) but back then, according to massive survey, 35% of UK babies were exclusively breastfed at 1 week. 21% at six weeks, 7% at 4 months and 3% at 5 months.

/Rant ends

On another note, LadyT - thanks for that mental picture which I will now carry into my interview with Justin. Eeek!