ok lefties....does that mean I'm not then?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because alongside social justice I really really really care about civil liberties? because they are not 'liberties schmiberties' to me, but rather, 'there but for the grace go I'? Do you think that really leftwing stalwarts like Roy Hattersley would agree with you that civil liberties didn't count for shit compared with keeping unemployment down at all costs, however fake the stats are in real terms?

because although I believe in state intervention, in the state as a mechanism of a drive to redistribution of wealth and drive to granting opportunity to all i ALSO believe fervently in the individual, in empowering individuals to make their own destinies.

I am so fucking disheartened by the tribalism, pettiness and bloodymindedness that I've been reading on the leftie thread.

New Labour wasn't really socialist at all, rode roughshod over the rights of (the most vulnerable) individuals, decreased social mobility in this country. they needed a kick up the arse and got one. they need to reinvent and regroup and godknows they won't if David Milliband gets the leadership.

Maybe, even as a leftie you can see that to continue to attempt to spend our way out of trouble is fucked...we're in much worse trouble than we would otherwise be (and we'd be in deep shit anyway) because of this ostrich like way of governing.

coalition govt is so humanising of politicians: they can't strut about declaring how it needs to be, they just don't have the mandate...collaborative govt if that's what we have a chance of is so hopeful.

party politics is killing this country, I hope for it's swift demise. No one is all right or all wrong are they?

So stay in your red bunker, spitting on anything new, decrying and ranting about doom befalling before anything has fucking happened...but count me out for now.

Oh and good post animula

Zepherine and Claig - you've given me nightmares now!

I'm in deadline hell and haven't read whole of thread, but I have to say I'm completely gobsmacked by this, Soph, as I'm certain that most of your op is aimed at me.

I described the extent to which I care about the civil liberties agenda. I didn't criticize or attack you personally.

There was PLENTY of very strong criticism of Labour's policies on the other thread - it should be possible to offer the same strength of criticism back. I don't like what has happened, I don't agree with the policy agenda; I think it's okay to be honest about that.

As I said on the other thread (before I saw this one) "TBH I think it's slightly unrealistic for there not to be a bit of grumpiness, given the diagram of the last week. I think on the whole we've done okay, given the extent to which LibDems and Labour supporters have (or in my case, haven't) considered themselves cut from similar-ish cloth, in the past.

I don't think this is really a case of internet anonymity making us uncaring of people's feelings. The people I know who I have political discussions with speak to me passionately and I them."

TBh it's a pretty poor show to start a new thread about it - just as upsetting to stumble upon, from my perspective, as you feel about someone disagreeing with your politics on a politics thread.

"words on a screen" to quote the legendary scottishmummy. Everyone gets miffed, and we should give our honest views of parties or politicians. It doesn't mean we are insulting all the supporters of those parties. Everyone is entitled to believe what they believe. It sounds like sophable got the hump with some criticism of the LibDems, and took it personally. It will all be forgotten, water under the bridge, words on a screen. sophable is a great poster and will get back into the thick of it, once she has calmed down.

OBM, I do understand why Soph is hurt, sounding off about libdem=tory doesn't equate to a rational discussion of policies, does it?

In fact, Soph, your OP is in exactly the tone that you have used about Labour at several points during the last 8 (!) Leftie threads.

Prescott said exactly the same on Sky TV as Brown drove to see the Queen. I think it is a point of view. Prescott said that Labour councillors up and down the country thought that the LibDem councillors were just Tory councillors and fought them on that basis. He said "we've always known the LibDems were Tories, now we're going to see it". It's an opinion that is probably shared by many other Labour people apart from Prescott. I don't think onebatmother has done anything wrong. I like sophable, she is one of the best posters, but I think she did overreact on this occasion.

Soph, sorry if you felt you couldn't post what you wanted on the Leftie thread. I'm fairly sure you weren't the only one who expressed concern over civil liberties. I also remain to be convinced over the argument for ID cards - I don't think that means I'm not a leftie

I didn't vote LD although wouldn't have had a problem doing so if it meant keeping the tories out. I've voted LD in the past in protest over the war.

I'm very over Clegg at the minute. I think he always intended to join a LibCon coalition and just used the negoiations with Labour to strenghten his hand with Cameron. It might've worked, time will tell, but although I (think) I prefer the idea of LibCon over pure Con, only time will tell. So far, I don't think they've got much in the way of concession. No agreement for PR referendum, they can vote against Trident (well they could've done anyway) and they can ABSTAIN???? on the marriage tax?

Have I got that right? Tbh I've missed a bit of news over the last few days, so perhaps something massive has sailed over my consciousness.

Iain Drunken Smith on BBC1 News, "today was excellent, like we'd been working together for years" nudge, nudge, wink, wink

Sophable We miss you. We do not all need to think the same way, do we? And you make a very good case for your arguments.

I consider myself liberal in my home country and a leftie in England. As I "flocked in" from Eastern Europe I am probably not as libertarian as you are (like ID cards would not bother me as I always had them, never known a place without them), but civil liberties are important.

Anyway, the main thing is I think you can be a leftie and respect civil liberties.

Of course you can be a leftie and respect civil liberties. NO-ONE has said that you can't. Conversely a concern for individual freedoms does not necessarily make you a Leftie. And not thinking that identity cards are the mark of a fascist regime doesn't make me a blind Labourite.

As for LibDem = Tory remark, I completely accept that the way I expressed that was inflammatory - but I really don't think it was any more inflammatory than the equally disparaging things that were being said about Labour.

And I'm hardly the first to point out, before and after the coalition was announced, that the Tories adn LibDems DO have plenty in common - for goodness' sake, they've just formed a government together, and have barely stopped telling us how much common ground they share for the past two days.

It was the elephant in the room on that thread - wildly unrealistic to think that those posters who believe passionately that the Tories are wrong would not be upset when the other posters' leaders enabled them to form a government.

I think you're right OBM it was definitely an elephant in the room.

Perhaps we need an anxious lefty liberals thread as well, or in the spirit of co-operation and making things work are we now forced to join the anxious tories thread (joke)

I will have to continue to lurk though, or how would I otherwise find out such gems as the fact that Mark Thomas is retweeting old Vince Cable posts that are less than complimentary about our new chancellor - classic!

onebatmother, agree with what you are saying. But don't think that ID cards are a fascist thing. They are a socialist Stasi thing. Two articles, one from that rag, the Guardian, beloved by all reprobates and ne'er-do-wells, and another from that paragon of virtue, the incomparable, Daily Mail.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/nov/06/ukcrime.prisonsandprobation

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-512721/How-did-allow-Britain-Stasi-state.html

I used the word fascist in the Rik sense

Oojimaflip - you are playing with words. Labour promised ethics and delivered death. Promised greater economic fairness and Blair runs off into the arms of JP Morgan while his foundation is just a money grabbing scam.

Animula - political purity? Utopianism? This is what we have today. A narrow set of acceptable politic, based around some kind of weird reasoning that one set of careerists can somehow put X right, mend our broken Y.

The last six lines i don't really get, not in a rude way., just nor sure what you mean.

true they are an authoritarian thing. But most authoritarian regimes across the world are left-wing rather than right-wing. Even the National Socialists were socialists.

in all seriousness, if Labour had managed to stay in power for the next 20 years, it would have meant the end of all our civil liberties.

yes StewieGriffinsMom, that's why the new lot are not all bad news, every cloud has a silver lining

I think you're right about social issues, but I think on education they may be an improvement. I like the idea of their free schools etc., I think it may increase competition and raise standards, at least I hope so

I have got a feeling that this parent thing may be a smokescreen, and that they really want to open it up so that private companies can open schools up. It might be profitable for them to open up in deprived areas and demonstrate that they can perform better than the existing state schools. I am not sure if that is what they want to do, but if it was it may improve education in deprived areas.