Tax Credits = benefit-dependent society?

[Chil1234]

Seems that the scariest thing facing many people on these boards about getting rid of the Labour government would be the prospect of a drop in tax credits and other benefits.

Being cynical, I'm now wondering if Labour didn't deliberately engineer the way tax credits work not solely to help those in genuine need but also so that the maximum number of people receive a portion of their income from the state. If it wasn't in part to create a culture of dependency and entitlement why else set the ceiling for receipt up as high as £50k?

oh, so you claimed tax credits yourself?! why all the slagging it off then?!

Again - you chose to work full time, nobody forced you. If the government chooses to provide top ups in the form of tax credits for parents who wish to work part time, then why shouldn't we take them up on it?

there's a difference between having an independent personality, and being independent.

Anyway, what's the point in me bothering to argue my point anymore, you clearly have very (ignorant) set views on the subject and nothing I or anyone else says is going to have any effect.

So you carry on thinking I'm lazy, and god forbid you should end up in my situation.

Actually my initial comment about a degree being a luxury was because of the lady who said she needed the time at home because she was studying for Maths degree ?for fun?. I concede that studying for a vocational degree in social care etc etc is indeed a different case in point.

So we've established that earning £50k puts a household in the top 5% (or was it 1%?) in this country, and that tax credits are paid to families with children right up to that income?

That's bonkers, surely.

"oh, so you claimed tax credits yourself?! why all the slagging it off then?!"

Please show me where I slagged people off for claiming tax credits?

My point is - tax credits are to top up low incomes. If you have a low income because you have chosen to work less hours, its not fair that you can get your money topped up.

cordonbleugh - what is 'your situation?' that you hope I never end up in? I dont get it?

Acanthus - yes it is. We should just stop wasting all this time and money on means testing.

Every one has different levels of resilience and energy, just as each child is different. Some will be quite happy in a nursery all day playing, others will find it distressing. The WOHM VS SAHM tiff is just silly.

I have to say I am kind of lucky, in my job I have no option, I work school hours. However, the pay is pitiful, (as I have already stated, 10k a year, works out at 7.04 p/h) so I have to rely on TCs. Round here it's considered a decent income in comparison with the alternative jobs available. It's almost impossible to find a job paying more than the minimum wage. So I could work more hours, see my son less, quit my only chance of improving my situation (I also study languages with the OU), and still be no better off than I am now. I would also be exhausted and no use to my son, who has already lost his father (deadbeat loser). Why should he lose his mum to work?

foureleven - I think 'fairness' is a very poor guide to how we should organise ourselves as a society. Along with 'choice'.

Okay, I've done a quick calculation on entitled to.

Based on a 25 year old single parent with 1 child, the figures come out at

16-29 hours worked per week
Annual salary £10k
weekly childcare costs £85
child tax credits award - £184.05

30+ hours worked per week £181.06
Annual salary £20k
weekly childcare costs £175
child tax credit award £181.06

Okay, so a rough estimate, but it doesn't seem like part timers are taking a whole load more than their share.

I've probably missed out something massively important

Elvis maybe soem people choose to work PT but what about the people who can mange or find PT work but not FT? Disabled, sick, carers, Dh as all he could do around post retraining redunsancy

yet dh will be back in work soon hopefully FT

So won't the PT tax credits have done their job? Helped us cope withr edundancy in a dying fireld and got him back in a growing one?

What's wrong there?

Ah that amde no sense, ds was trying to colour my carpet as I typed

Sorry

OK I am a carer; out of workforce

DH was made redundant, and of the 3 companies in his field only one remains

Dh ahd 3 options:

Sit on dole

Sit on dole waiitng for either vacancy in old field or something else locally (not much, particulalry abdly hit ehre)

Retrain

Whilst retraining Dh wanted to earn some money, so he set up in business. He works varying hours each week due to demand / training workload but neverr ever less than 16 hours

Way I see it DH is doing the RRight Thing

and Tc's are helping him get us back off any help

Big plus for anyone surely?

We've already done all this.

bbc average salaries piece

A salary of £32K put you in the top 25% of earners (a year ago).

40% of people do not earn over £40K.

throughout this whole thread, you have slagged off tax credits, maybe only when they are claimed to top up part time earnings, but still.

What I meant was I seriously hope you never end up in a situation where you have no choice but to claim either full benefits, or top ups due to working part time since it is so clearly beneath you.

Anyway, this is starting to get personal now, which is really not like me at all, I don't want to overstep the mark.

Oh, and thankyou by the way, for conceding on your point about degrees. fwiw, I thing southsbelle was being sarcastic when she said "just for fun".

Why is it not fair that we can get our income topped up? People choose to work less hours for various reasons, sometimes it's beyond their capabilities to work full time.

It's the government you should be taking issue with, not the people claiming what they are entitled to.

What does 'fair' have to do with anything?

I also agree with FF, there is a huge difference between someone who has a partner to lend a hand with the responsibilities and a lone parent who has to do it all alone.

This is even harder when there is NO contact/visitation/shared custody, and quadrupled when there is no extended family to lend a hand.

It's totally unfair to critisise a mum who is trying really hard to balance everything. At least those workign PT with TCs are TRYING, and not just sitting at home 24/7 living off the state.

Oh and I do agree it's a shame we need those top ups (and that we are a non typical family) but the rents etc habve risen dramtically since TC's as have many prices due to the amount people have coming in and as such pulling them now for anyone much (I have no feelings on the £50k thing- can see both ssides tbh) would lead to a direct increase of homelessness etc and all teh costs that entails instead.

And a lot of allied issues- such as childhood deprivation and the furure societal costs that brings.

My kid don't know we're 'poor' (am not sure we are but certainly we are low income, there's a difference) and that's a positive: they see tehir dad work long hors and I want them to associate with that working culture, not a poverty one we happen to have landed in due to circumstances. One generation hit by bad luck hopefully temporarily is vastly different to it becoming inter-generational poverty.

But also agree that work is more than a £; I almost certainly won't get it but am applying for some on call / sumemr work becuase although income wise it won't help (will lose carers etc for that time) it will help me feel like a human being again.

And just not being on benefits; I ahd my eyesight update earlier, the lady behind the desk saw I had been tested in 2008 and said ' you do know that we won't accept a voucher twice in 2 uuyears don't you, tehre's only so many times you can expect the state to pay'- rather upset (aI was already really ambarassed at using the voucher) I explained I had never had a free eyesight test before and had always paid until DH lost his job, she sort of apologised and slunk off but by then I was back in the barely-cop9ing mess I was trying to emerge from: benefits do nothing for ones self esteem.

Totally agree FIo

And as very, very few people are so well off hey are totally immune from hardship via disability etc, even when working it is good to know a safety net that enable you to keep your home etc exists.

I hope I never end up in a situation where I have no choice but to claim full benefits or can only work part time. Many end up in that situation; they have a disabled child, they are made redundant and can only find part time work etc etc and yes it could happen to me.

But being a single mother doesnt put you in the catagory of 'have no choice' but to work full time.

I may have mentioned that I run a business that helps people back in to employment. I met a woman today who was fit, healthy and bright. She had an 8 year old who was in school full time.

When I said to her I had a full time vacancy that i could help her to prepare for an interview for she looked at me like I was barking and said - oh no, I am only ABLE to work part time because I HAVE to do the school pick up, my daughter only likes me to pick her up. Besides, my tax credits will top up the rest -

Now, my daughter would prefer me to pick her up too. There are far far less part time jobs than full time ones at the moment.

This woman is making out that she is UNABLE to work full time when actually it is a lifestyle choice because she believes she is incapable of working full time and being a mother.

She went on to say she would be exhausted and wouldnt have any quality of life etc etc if she worked part time and her daughter would suffer because of the 2 hours a night that she would have to speand with a childminder.

I wonder how much of women beleiving they cant work fulltime is to do with self belief? I mean, its hardly working down the mines for 12 hours a day. It aint that tiring!!

But being a single mother doesnt put you in the catagory of 'have no choice' but to work part time.

And I think people who choose to claim when they could self support give the rest of us a bad nbame fourelven

if you came to me with a job that enabled me to be ablout for SNU / school runs (no childcare we can use sadly) and be about for half terms (DH can do holidays but not half terms) I would snap your hands off

Those jobs are far between, sadly, and the odler I get the ahrder it is to find them (I was in charity sector and l;ast two palces I worked now folded taking my references with them, although still studying / recently graduated and have refs there)

What I think people really don't understand the value of until it is taken away is choice. Yes I used to whine about long hours when I did work, but goodness I would love to have teh chance to whine now! Because it would mean the bolys were somehow 'cured'.

In fact, learning how it is to have no choice has been the hardest lesson of my little life.

sorry

I just get when people say that lots of people are earning lots of money, that the average wage is huge, that sort of thing. It's usually done by wealthy people to make them feel better about their incomes, and is nonsense. So I pop out of a hatch every time it's said