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Politics

Tax Credits = benefit-dependent society?

340 replies

Chil1234 · 03/05/2010 08:08

Seems that the scariest thing facing many people on these boards about getting rid of the Labour government would be the prospect of a drop in tax credits and other benefits.

Being cynical, I'm now wondering if Labour didn't deliberately engineer the way tax credits work not solely to help those in genuine need but also so that the maximum number of people receive a portion of their income from the state. If it wasn't in part to create a culture of dependency and entitlement why else set the ceiling for receipt up as high as £50k?

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 03/05/2010 11:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

animula · 03/05/2010 11:58

Leningrad - it's as Minthumbug says: If employers pay above the minimum wage (in some cases) they are forced to pass on the costs of that to the pricing of the goods they produce, which, in some cases, prices them beyond what the market will stand. So Tax Credits is a business subsidy.

(Can't believe I'm arguing this, as a leftie!)

Now, my take on Labour is that they felt they inherited a situation in which Britain was effectively positioned as a global, not national market, and a lot of their economic stuff was determined by this interpretation. The rights and wrongs of this are a bit beyond my skills. And it's possibly too early to give a judgment on that.

So I also see tax credits as a sneaky national subsidy, subsidising goods for a global market ... .

So, wrt increase gap between rich and poor, decreased social mobility, I see that as a global phenomenon, partly brought about by a super-rich class. And studies have shown Britain has not done badly relative to other first world countries. It looks as though Labour had to do a lot of work just to slow that disparity down. Persoanlly, I'd have liked them to do more, but when you consider our major industry now appears to be the finance sector ... they're a bit hamstrung. And goodness knows what it'll be like under a non-progressive government.

MintHumbug - I guess I just disagree re. benefit dependency =Labour dependency. Agree it's all going to look a bit ... peanuts in the next few stormy years. But I know I'd rather have a progressive government, committed to making things as painless as possible for the most vulnerable, rather than a government that doesn't have that basic commitment at its heart.

And I think that a lot of what Labour proposes makes sense as regards positioning Britain globally. They won't do anything insane to the financial market (however much as a leftie I cringe at that), they will support the national market. But as you say, that is pig in a poke time.

LeninGrad · 03/05/2010 12:01

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lou031205 · 03/05/2010 12:05

Mumblechum, sorry. To clarify, that 'case study' is actually my family. The man is my DH. We live in Hampshire. South East England.

IagreewithNick · 03/05/2010 12:06

I do wonder if tax credits are New Labour's version of Thatcher's buy your own council house which won over many working class voters.

I just think there is something very wrong in a society when those earning above an average wage need state handouts to survive.

ImSoNotTelling · 03/05/2010 12:14

lou I think you'll find that is impossible as men in the SE do not earn less than £40K.

Is it possible that you have got confused and actually live oop north or something? You may have got carried away watching eastenders or something.

Janos · 03/05/2010 12:19

I didn't 'take on' my job because of tax credits - I was already doing it, then my circumcstances changed.

In fact, I was earning a lot more pre DS. Whole other thread there though..

foureleven · 03/05/2010 12:19

Vinegartits and Janos, when I was a single mum I relied on them too, I worked full time and tax credits paid for about 70% of my childcare. Great, thats what its for. What i dont understand is why if people choose to work part time (including single mums, Its not your choice to be single maybe but its not a disability) or not at all... they shouldnt in my mind get tax credits- another benefit maybe so that children arent living in poverty of course.

Or maybe it could be claimed for a period when one becomes a single mum to give time to find ones feet after separating. But lots of women once becoming single go on and on for years and years choosing to work part time and relying on tax credits to top up their wages. I dont think it is a right for someone to not work every hour they can to support their own family themsleves if they are able to.

Before all this tax credits business if a family couldnt survive on one wage then both parents worked. I thought tax credits were brought in to encourage people to go back to work and be able to get help with childcare costs... instead because of the way they work it actually makes it easier for one parent to work part time or not at all in many cases.

Lou; I see your point completely, no one would argue that your family shouldnt get some help. or that you should be made to work, one of your children is disabled so its not going to be easy to find the care that they need, and your DH is on a very low salary. Its not an 'average' situation.

Oh and the avaerage low earning less than 40k??? What? the average salary is 25k no?

lou031205 · 03/05/2010 12:23

Imsonottelling - I'm gonna file for divorce tomorrow. That is clearly where I am going wrong. I reckon DH must be hiding the other £25000 and I am being taken for a fool

ooojimaflip · 03/05/2010 12:29

Mumblechum - an AWFUL lot of people earn less the 40k.

scaryteacher · 03/05/2010 12:29

I find tax credits very confusing as I had ds in 1995, and I went back to work when he was 6 months old. He went to nursery 3 days a week, I had him at home for 2 days, and we paid. There was no subsidy.

Meglet · 03/05/2010 12:30

As a lone parent tax credits mean we can survive. I work 20 hours a week and have a 1yo and 3yo in nursery.

foureleven Working full time isn't practical, I need to juggle my time and have free time in the week to take the dc's to doctors apts when they are ill, which in the winter months is pretty often. There's no way an employer would have me coming in late / leaving early if I was on 9-5 mon - fri. I will be able to work more hours when the dc's are older and at infant school.

I was working before I split up with XP and so I have no option but to continue, AFAIK I wouldn't get a penny if I was to stop work, just child benefit but that won't pay the bills.

cordonbleugh · 03/05/2010 12:32

Why are you so against single parents working part time foureleven?

ooojimaflip · 03/05/2010 12:34

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

UK Region Mean Income % earning over £ 50,000 % of households receiving income related benefits
North East England £19,127 2.78 % 31 %
North West England £20,483 3.99 % 27%
Yorkshire £20,247 3.83 % 24%
East Midlands £20,868 4.34 % 21 %
West Midlands £20,530 3.94% 25%
East of England £24,401 6.83% 20%
London £29,947 9.49% 24%
South East England £26,328 8.50% 16%
South West England £20,954 4.47% 19%
Wales £19,007 3.05% 24%
Scotland £20,895 4.32% 26%
Northern Ireland £19,705 3.22% 26%

lou031205 · 03/05/2010 12:53

OK, using a wage of £26328 for the man:

ctc/wtc337.12
housing benefit75.94
child benefit47.1
net wage 386.29
ca 53.90
Woman net wage 92.80
total 993.15
childcare costs 300
NET INCOME 693.15
546.45

Woman not working
ctc/wtc133.97
housing benefit66.80
child benefit47.1
net wage 386.29
ca 53.90
total 688.06
childcare costs 0
NET INCOME 688.06

NET INCREASE FOR FAMILY £5.09 pw
COST TO TAXPAYER £305.09

How can it be a good thing for children to go to childcare for 18 hours per week, and the taxpayer to foot an extra £305.09 each week, when the family in question only gains £5.09 for it????

mumblechum · 03/05/2010 13:02

I'm obviously living on another planet.

None of the people who work for dh earn less than £70k, none of my friends' dh's earn less than £100k, tho' that will include bonuses.

Maybe because we/they are all getting on now, mostly mid to late forties.

wubblybubbly · 03/05/2010 13:03

Lou, I've got a 3 yr old on my knee so difficult to concentrate but wondering if those figures take account of tax/ni paid? Also the creation of additional work for the childcarer?

wubblybubbly · 03/05/2010 13:05

mumblechum, we'd like to emigrate to your planet please!

mumblechum · 03/05/2010 13:06

I do agree that it would be crazy to pay someone £305 per week in tax credits for them to end up being a fiver a week better off.

I wonder what will happen to TCs if DC gets in. I don't believe he'll leave them alone for long.

foureleven · 03/05/2010 13:09

"foureleven Working full time isn't practical, I need to juggle my time and have free time in the week to take the dc's to doctors apts when they are ill, which in the winter months is pretty often. There's no way an employer would have me coming in late / leaving early if I was on 9-5 mon - fri. I will be able to work more hours when the dc's are older and at infant school."

What??! you need free time int he week to take your children to doctors appointments.. Umm ALL kids have to go to doctors appointments and of course employers let people take time of to do that! Why should you get to have your wage substadised so that you can have days off with your children and others dont.

I have to juggle my time, as do most of my friends and family, its hard work but thats being a parent for you.
Time off for doc appointments, never heard of anything so ridiculous!

cordonbleugh - because strike me down, I am a grafter and I think if you want food on yours kids tables and a warm place for them to sleep you should be the one out earning it not every other bugger!

IagreewithNick · 03/05/2010 13:10

Mumble you must know that is not normal

QueenofWhatever · 03/05/2010 13:10

mumblechum, a very, very different planet to mine. I earn £40kish (but £32k as part-time) and I am in the top 5-10% of earners in my profession.

I too am a lone parent and not out of choice, so get £10 a week tax credits. However, what is really valuable is that I am senior enough to organise my working day around my needs and have a PA to do that for me. If I couldn't come in early/late and was strapped for cash, my life would be immeasurably more difficult. I may well not work and what sort of role model is that for my DD?

Oh and I'm in my forties too with degrees etc. It's not age or the south east, I think you're priviliged.

foureleven · 03/05/2010 13:12

The problem with the workings out/ case studies above is they only take in to consideration the present. Maybe the family would only be £5 a week better off.. but they are building a career, a future, and contributing! Its not forever. When I had my daughter 4 years ago I was probably in the same situation, well maybe I had about £80 extra a week than if I didnt work full time... but I have been building a future so I was happy to do it.

Meglet · 03/05/2010 13:12

A lot of employers don't let people take time off for doctors appointments! And when would I make up the time .

MmeTrueBlueberry · 03/05/2010 13:12

I think that you grow to depend on whatever your income is, whether you have earned it or received it as a government benefit.