Greens adopt policy treating Zionism as racism (part 2)

[Twiglets1]

Follow on from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5585462-greens-adopt-policy-treating-zionism-as-racism?page=40&reply=155235707

I’ll just leave this here. The annotated green countries are Muslim.

I genuinely couldn’t tell who you were talking about but I think this is actually a list of antisemitic tropes and I will stop engaging. It could easily be about another religion too though

most people don’t use science. Most people will act in the name of religion - any number of religions. Millions and millions more people align themselves with a religion than not and religion has been used in countless wars, acts of terrorism, conflicts, disagreements, political situations and even health care. Many, many women die due to a lack of abortion care in Christian and Muslim countries just for one example. It’s disingenuous to pretend Israel is the only country with religion as a starting point.

Zionism means that Jewish people have a right to a homeland.
Have a look at creation of Pakistan? Who was that created for, and in what circumstances? Same with many nations.
This whole argument is antisemitic; it's only Jews who have no right to a homeland with secure borders.

This is an excellent post - thank you. 👏

It all sounds like religious mumbo jumbo to me....no one has a homeland. Jewish people live all over the world, as do muslims and christians. So where is the Christian home land....it's all very silly.

The more I hear the more I think a world without religion would be far better.

Are Jews safe everywhere? If only there was somewhere safe Jews could have got to prior to 1941. There was nowhere. That's why they need a homeland.
If things get tough for Muslims in certain countries there are tens of Muslim majority nations.
This is about Jewish people not having a homeland. It's nothing to do with religion, by the way, think on this -
they didn't check synagogue attendance at the gates of Auschwitz.

I don't think anyone on here is calling for the destruction of Israel more than we revert to a world where we sit down and talk rather than bomb people we don't agree with

The more enemies you make the more chances there are you will seal your own destruction

You didn't act answer her question?

You just said defending yourself but would you defending Jewish people from the well documented threat of genocide made towards them by religious fanatics?

Zionism is a thing because most Jewish people understand from their own history that others are not going to come save them. That Jews do need a homeland in to retreat to if necessary. Just how necessary that has been in the last 100 years I don't think even someone with limited historical knowledge would dare to argue about.

Also

Not all Jews are religious, most are not

However most are zionists

Therefore your arguments about religion are heavily floored and an unnecessary excuse to justify not letting people have freedom to live in tbe same way others are allowed.

Zionists are not actually asking for better treatment than any other race or ethnicity, they are asking for the freedom to have a home and safe place to be themselves without prejudice.

Stopping a genocide in Myanmar is defending myself? And by all means necessary would involve killing.

You're suddenly very pro-war in foreign countries?

If people aren't safe then we should be dealing with it in the UK. We have strict rules and we shouldn't tolerate it.

We should behave like adults and treat each other with respect.

Meanwhile children have amputations without anesthesia because Israel won't allow medicine through.
I don't know if Israel is letting medicine through or not (though I do know that Israelis used to drive Palestinians from Gaza to Israeli hospitals for treatment...)

However, Gaza also has a border with Egypt. Everyone seems to forget this when discussing what and how much aid is going into Gaza.

Funny that.

It's almost as if Egypt gets a free pass and all the flack is aimed at the Jewish state.

There's a word for that.

Gosh. Yes! So glad you told me that. I had no idea we could cure bigotry in the entire world by saying it’s a good idea not to be a bigot.

I keep switching back and forth between deciding you’re an incurable antisemite or an incurable optimist. ‘Of course’ people should be able to live wherever they like and worship or not however they like. But… they can’t? History has proven time and time again since the dawn of time that people don’t behave fairly and people don’t have free movement to go wherever they like and bigotry can’t be cured by just asking nicely. I don’t really understand what you’re saying.

Do you have any idea what it’s like to live as a Jewish person in the world? Or any number of other minorities of course, I’m not that special. The police are only mildly interested when my 13 year old daughter is chased home by a group of teenage boys yelling free Palestine. Who exactly is going to stamp out the problem?

Yes, and wasn't Gaza under Egyptian military rule until 1967?

A way to make them feel safe is to stop demonising the only Jewish state.
Then maybe ignorant boys wouldn't chase @PurpleThistle7 's daughter home repeating mindless chants.

This is the problem.
It's not "religious mumbo jumbo" (sic).
It's not that Israel is worse than Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan or Sudan etc etc
It's that Jewish people are not safe, and people's bigotry will not allow them even the notion of a safe space with secure borders. Funny how they demand it for others.
Your poor daughter, that's shocking, but not surprising 💐

Yes, and didn't Mandatory Palestine extend into what is now Jordan?
Does Jordan have a right to exist?

I'm not actually very religious but my point is according to Jesus killing us wrong. If people are being killed because of a religious belief then we have to do something. What happened in the second world war was so horrendous that it changed the world.

We cant justify war through religion we can justify war as a last resort to protect human life or a countries sovereignty.

The state of Israel was created, that is history and it's status we should protect by all means necessary.

You're not reading the posts. Israel is a secular state. It's not about religion, it's about a safe homeland
You know, I've explained umpteen times now, you've got an agenda, and obviously aren't taking the points on board.

Brilliant way to make this conflict sound so simple. However don't you think over the years this approach has been tried and failed. You make it sound like Israel has just decided to bomb people for no reason at all and that is clearly your own view judging by your posts. The evil religious people are killed in the name of their made up in the sky person.

Back in tbe real world most of us do agree with your line of thinking to some extent. On this thread I don't think many are religious or even Jewish from what I have read in their posts. However we do understand that their are strong religious motivation towards killing Jews alongside the normal fight over land and remaining on the land. Then on the Jewish side their are also the same feelings about the land because of religion but alongside the fight for survival etc.

Religion has done many wrongs in this world, we the people that follow it have. This is something I do agree with you on. However I feel it has offered structure and comfort to so many people in a world that is often very scary. I could never bring myself to take religion away from those people.

Reminds me of the map I saw on a university dorm wall 40 years ago. The green bits were a bit smaller back then, less of Africa.

This is what Jewish people are against and why the Israeli Jewish population is made up of more than fifty percent Middle Eastern Jews.

This picture is what antizionism means and why most Jewish people even if not religious belive in zionism

People that speak about zionism or zionists in a negative manner are amazingly ignorant. It isn't just about religion, it is about the survival of millions of people.

It's a somewhat intractable, long running, geo-political conflict which some people believe will be solved by simplistic slogans and chants, or ditching "religious mumbo jumbo" (sic).
The more I read of it, the more I admire people who have worked on various Peace Accords, like Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Golda Meir, Anwar Sadat, Menachem Begin among others. Some paid with their lives.

It's not a genocide; the population of Gaza is growing. You also stated before that there are limits to how one should defend themselves. You're really speaking from a privileged position - not from being held hostate in a tunnel or from seeing your relatives and friends bound by wire then burned to death. That's what genocide really is; going door to door in a kibbutz to hunt down and slaughter people for their race.

Zionism is as catchy as racist, being the trendy words used to fight keyboard warrior battles with. Lazy, unsubstantiated claims trying to make the warrior look the better person.

Those statistics are shocking, but tell a story. A Jewish homeland, with secure borders, is essential.