This post nails it about left wing voters on Mumsnet over the last two days

[ProudAmberTurtle]

It's by an ex-academic on X, about posts on Reddit over the last 48 hours but is equally applicable to Mumsnet, where I can seeing posts stating things like:

"How stupid are Reform voters? Don't they realise they'll get fewer benefits?!"

The irony is of course that it's those posters who need to be educated, not the working class voters they mock because they think they're thick.

Here you go:

Reading through Reddit threads in which leftists/progressives express their bewilderment/confusion/fury at working class English voters for casting their lot in with Reform, one of the things I'm starting to understand is this:

They simply do not understand how a government could help working-class people in any other way besides giving them benefits, handouts, and other free things.

Their entire mental architecture is premised upon the premises that

1. Working class people are poor
2. The only way for them to not be poor is for the state to give them free stuff
3. So left-wing parties need to promise them lots of free stuff

Then, when these working-class voters instead vote for right-of-centre parties who instead promise an economy in which they can build a career, start their own business, make a financial success of themselves and start a family, they're confused.

Because, again, in their mental architecture, what the working class are supposed to want is free benefits from the state.

But what they actually want is a fair shake at making their own way in the world, making money, getting on in life.

And the left simply doesn't understand that what these voters want from the state is an economy in which they can actually do this.

x.com/i/status/2053073719086469193

Yes, and don’t forget bad actors directed by those whose interest is to see the UK performing badly and its people divided.

How will removing things like all their employment rights help them get on in life?

Denmark/Norway abolished slavery over a decade before Britain got round to it.

The British government then compensated the slave owners to the tune of £20 million (£17 billion in today's money). The debt was finally paid off in 2015.

Other countries had existing systems of law, rights, institution and education that the British empire swept aside with force and replaced with their own.

Egypt (for example) had irrigation systems about 8000 years before Britain invaded and occupied the country by military force. I can't think of one colonised country that didn't have irrigation before British invasion. They all had it - the British expanded it to grow crops e.g. cotton as part of the triangular trade based on slavery.

Your version of the empire is a lovely misty 'last night of the proms' version though. It would make a very good My First Reform Book.

Some bloke called Matthew who doesn't live in the UK?

Former academic. Anglo. Catholic. Imperfect and flawed. Interests in philosophy, faith, geopolitics, getting Britain's future back. Prior resident

You forgot this one!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5527659-the-left-have-a-become-a-snivelling-self-righteous-mob-busy-bodying-around-trying-to-shame-others

@StandingDeskDisco You are wrong. The right wing do want everyone to have a better life. They just don't believe this is achieved through giving out freebies. They believe that it is achieved through creating a better economy. Right wing people believe that creating a good economy benefits everyone. Compare the UK in the 1950s to the 1970s to the 1990s to now. When the economy improved, everyone's standard of living went up. The left wing are lying by saying that making everyone equal improves people's standard of living. Look at Venezuela-this is clearly not true-everyone just becomes poorer. This is why the left-wing need to be better at understanding how the economy works.
Too high taxation can lead to more unemployment as labour have clearly demonstrated. Higher NI contributions has led to businesses employing less people and in some cases going bankrupt.
If there are less people employed, there is less money coming in via taxation so less money to spend on what everyone wants-education, healthcare, police etc.
If benefits pay as much as working, it doesn't make sense to work. If people's incomes are taxed too highly then people choose not to go for a promotion as the difference is not great enough to make working harder worth it. This leads to a decrease in taxes coming in-so less money to spend on what everyone wants.
Yes, we all want good public services. The right just believe that this happens through creating a better economy.

Strange that, because another person quoted in the OP on another thread here was John Lydon. He's also some bloke who doesn't live in the UK, hasn't lived in the UK for 40 years and who is an American citizen.

Does the bloke who is funding Farage and Reform live in the UK or the far east?

All this patriotism from patriot men who live in other countries is very patriotic.

It’s more than this though because it’s a fantasy that just working hard now leads to success. The traditional professions, teaching, medicine and law, no longer provide the rewards that they used to do, except for the very top slice. Same for most other jobs. People can buy less for themselves and their families

Wealth is in the hands of an international hegemony of hedge funds and very wealthy families who for the most part do not pay taxes. Their wealth is in untaxed savings, which they do not spend, not income, on which the rest of us are taxed. This drives down wages and turns people into commodities.

Until people realise that the bulk of us are getting poorer and able to afford less and less, even if they feel they’re doing ok, things won’t change. The very wealthy are getting wealthier.

The bitterness, resentment and recrimination on this thread is remarkable . The reality is that pulling up the drawbridge won’t help, because most of us are outside the castle.

This. I’m baffled as to why people don’t understand this. It’s about sending a message. I know a number of people who voted for Reform or will vote for Reform, and none of them are narrow minded, thicko chavs on benefits. All of them are saying the same thing to me- they feel disillusioned, let down and fearful of the way the country is going. They can’t bring themselves to vote for any other party because they’ve been let down repeatedly by successive governments, and they don’t think Reform is the saviour of our nation, but they do want to send a message that people are unhappy, and want and need change. You can agree with this mindset or not, but it doesn’t change the fact that many people just want to be heard.

Christopher Harborne lives in Thailand,

Another prominent donor, Ben Dalo, lives in Hong Kong

Matthew on X could be anyone.

I’m probably left of centre but not left wing.
Voted for Blair with huge enthusiasm but I was young and thought things would change for the better.
From an area decimated by Thatcher.
Educated to Masters level, in economics, so I have a fair bit of understanding.
I now receive PIP due to physical disability which ended my career. But have worked since then from home. Which I own outright from my own efforts.
I currently have no political home.
Have friends of all political persuasions although I draw the line at far, far right.
I have come to the conclusion that very little changes no matter who is in charge.
As globalisation is now so prominent, economic powers and profits rest with companies and organisations which are not British-based.
Every single government has failed sections of society, and eroded institutions to the point of collapse.
The gap between rich and poor continues to widen.
I do observe kids I knew at school who had unemployed parents in the 70’s, and there are no four generations of non-workers in sprawling families. I can understand why working people rail against that, and they are correct to feel that way.
I can absolutely understand concerns over immigration which has become uncontrollable. The Tories didn’t not deal with it and Labour have not smashed the gangs.
Brexit and COVID have both placed pressure and now a President out of our control is causing prices to rise via conflicts which are motivated by his ego.
I live in a dominant Labour area where some are turning to Reform, and some are turning to the Greens.
I believe in wealth creation.
I also believe we should care for our most vulnerable.
But it’s now extreme wealth that’s rewarded, and the safety net at the bottom is too large and too heavy.
Not one party presents me now with anything I feel is workable.
When I was in excellent health with a great career I would never, ever have seen a time when an unpredicted accident would have ended my life as I knew it. Unless it happened to you, you would not get it.
Going from being a respected professional to sitting in a PIP tribunal and being spoken to like a piece of dirt is humbling, to say the least. It was only when the person in charge asked what I’d done beforehand that the tone changed. I was delectable again.
But it does not make me a victim.
I try to stay curious about the world around me and while I might not agree with them I can see what motivates them.
Not everyone who votes Reform is a racist nutjob.
Not everyone on the left knits their own breakfast, either.
I am white, working class and I celebrate everyone who betters their life in every way. I worked in education and it was my job to help people thrive. Education was my own key to more freedom and better opportunity.

Almost none of what you've written is true.

Denmark didn't ban slavery until 1848 - many years after the British did. (Denmark-Norway stopped transporting slaves across the Atlantic in 1803 - this is not the same as abolishing slavery).

The compensation argument is bewildering - that was the political price of abolishing slavery. The fact that the UK was prepared to spend so much to abolish something shows how opposed to it it was.

"Other countries had existing systems of law, rights, institution and education that the British empire swept aside with force and replaced with their own." This is nonsense. Britain used indirect rule, preserving local structures where functional, but only replacing them if not functional or abhorrent - ie Britain ended internal slave trades in India and Africa.

No one claimed Britain invented irrigation, but Britain expanded and modernised irrigation, canals, railways and perennial systems in Egypt and India for productivity. Britain occupied Egypt in 1882 for debt/political reasons, not to "grow cotton on slavery."

It's genuinely funny that there are people on here who mock Reform voters for not being educated when they could do with a tinsy bit of educating themselves.

Same x

Most people can be ok with the system becoming more competitive as long as they see themselves with a fair chance of winning at it.

They're ready to take the risk, because they understand that lowering NMW or relaxing employment rules will create a turnover and generate job opportunities for them. Then it's up to them, on their merits.

People with a modicum of ambition and an understanding of their long term self-interest prefer a way up to a safety net.

But the Left has totally forgotten about that bit, they have made it all about the safety net, the most "vulnerable", immutable identity, structural oppression, etc. sending the message not to bother to even try. Different mindset.

I think you are expressing yourself very well
I agree with everything you have said on the thread

Reform are the only party who are saying the thing British voters agree with, that's why they voted for them, to make their wishes known. I agree it's an alarm, and that no one really believes they can do all the things they promise (so no change there then).

Two articles in the Times today about the future of Labour. One from Labour grandee Lord Blunkett, one from young MP Josh Simons. Neither mention mass immigration as something they might need to get concerned about. You can ignore some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can't go on ignoring such a big issue, especially at a time of economic crisis.

This article was extremely powerful, and there is more than one Mumsnetter on this thread who would benefit from reading it.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/01fa4024-2020-480a-9db1-fb0b6fa089e3?shareToken=27a5fd5998fb65f9859ad52b5f730c01

Which is all well and good, but why punish law abiding people who are hear legally with indefinite leave to remain? Reform wants to kick them all out, no matter who they are, why they’re here, or how settled they are. This is what I mean by simple answers to complex problems. It sounds line people are choosing to “sound an alarm” by stamping on someone else, and they don’t care who it is because they’ve carefully ensured it won’t be them.

build the economy, promote British industry, make work pay and be seen to have sensible, controlled immigration.

You are extremely naive if you think Reform are remotely interested in any of that.

A billionaire gave Farage a £5m donation is all you need to know about them. Billionaires think Reform will make THEM exponentially more money, not the country, not the working class and not the economy. More division and hate, more disaster capitalism, more insider dealing making billions for the few before the next orchestrated crisis happens.

Have you actually been on Reform's policies page?

I agree with all of that, but of you think Reform are going to be better or different then think again. People on PIP with be fucked because they will stop all that overnight. They are an absolutely fucking disaster running Kent County Council, I wouldn't trust them to water my plants.

Well I think you’re making an assumption that all these people are white British, which isn’t the case. And whether you or I agree with their voting sentiment is beside the point- the fact is that they and many others will be voting along the same lines. People are angry, being taxed left, right and centre for increasingly poor services, and they want to be heard. But every time they try to speak or explain their concerns they are shut down or called racist or dismissed or ridiculed or called entitled. So if you can’t beat them then you may as well join them- this is why we are seeing a rise in Reform’s popularity- they play to people’s fears and concerns.

If anybody knows anything about your average British person, they don't want to work or do anything. We need immigrants to do the jobs because they are hardworking and innovative, how can people not see this? Britain was built by immigration, without it the kind of people who are voting for Reform would be still living in straw huts eating sticks & berries and not know how to use seasoning.

I am happy to bet that in 6 years time he will be the most unpopular bloke out there as will have proven that he’s just pure bullshit , but will have lined his pockets nicely - am I of the vegan, knitting your own breakfast and cycling/anti car brigade - nope, just a realist . If you are prepared to play dirty and promise stuff you know you can’t deliver at all but without stuff you simply aren’t saying , then so be it on you and he will deserve what’s coming . If you are so confident that working class people will vote for state insurance based healthcare (380 euro a month each in Germany) including pensioners, then come out with your actual solution now so people can decide , I’m going to bet he won’t do that - because it’s easier to fudge it and people don’t vote for it apart from wealthy ones. From the guy who bought you Brexit and an 8% decline and then people wonder why the gvt is stuffed for cash , can’t do ‘nice to haves’ and their towns still look crap and their councils don’t have enough cash . I thought Brexit was going to mean everything was cheaper, people would be loaded. Go back, listen to all the propaganda at the time.Can’t believe many people have such poor judgement or can’t understand why it’s tough on anyone in power in these circumstances. If I was Starmer or Wes streeting or Darren jones I would have a huge urge to say ‘fuck the lot of you’ -just give Farage the keys and get the popcorn in

Except not the white working classes who should just be ignored according to you. We see you and all your prejudice.

But I thought Reform don't believe in mental illness?! So they think the mentally ill are all faking it.

That is pretty messed up.