This post nails it about left wing voters on Mumsnet over the last two days

[ProudAmberTurtle]

It's by an ex-academic on X, about posts on Reddit over the last 48 hours but is equally applicable to Mumsnet, where I can seeing posts stating things like:

"How stupid are Reform voters? Don't they realise they'll get fewer benefits?!"

The irony is of course that it's those posters who need to be educated, not the working class voters they mock because they think they're thick.

Here you go:

Reading through Reddit threads in which leftists/progressives express their bewilderment/confusion/fury at working class English voters for casting their lot in with Reform, one of the things I'm starting to understand is this:

They simply do not understand how a government could help working-class people in any other way besides giving them benefits, handouts, and other free things.

Their entire mental architecture is premised upon the premises that

1. Working class people are poor
2. The only way for them to not be poor is for the state to give them free stuff
3. So left-wing parties need to promise them lots of free stuff

Then, when these working-class voters instead vote for right-of-centre parties who instead promise an economy in which they can build a career, start their own business, make a financial success of themselves and start a family, they're confused.

Because, again, in their mental architecture, what the working class are supposed to want is free benefits from the state.

But what they actually want is a fair shake at making their own way in the world, making money, getting on in life.

And the left simply doesn't understand that what these voters want from the state is an economy in which they can actually do this.

x.com/i/status/2053073719086469193

I’m not making that assumption about anyone’s ethnicity, I’m going from what Reform leadership says they are going to do to people with ILR if they win the next general election. And it is very much aimed at punishing “not us,” ie people who have indefinite leave to remain and (mostly) can’t vote, but do pay taxes.

It's the racism OP. It's always the racism we object to.

The right wing do want everyone to have a better life. They just don't believe this is achieved through giving out freebies. They believe that it is achieved through creating a better economy. Right wing people believe that creating a good economy benefits everyone.
It is in the very nature of capitalism that profit goes to the investor, not the worker. So a 'better economy' without mechanisms for re-distribution will always benefit the rich over the poor.
'Trickle-down' is a myth, a lie.
To benefit the working class, you need a good economy PLUS workers rights and protections PLUS a big state to provide public services PLUS high taxation of wealth to fund the state.

Compare the UK in the 1950s to the 1970s to the 1990s to now. When the economy improved, everyone's standard of living went up.
Standards of living are demonstrably lower now than in the 1950s or 1970s.
A man (it was usually the man) could afford to house a stay-at-home wife and children on a single wage, and still have a modest week's holiday.
Now it takes two people working full time to afford the housing, and there is horrendous stress on them when the babies arrive due to childcare costs. Most cannot afford it without grandparents helping, or going into debt, or state help via UC and housing benefit if they are renting
Yes, we have more tech toys, and the shops are full of cheap (shoddy) clothes and consumer goods, but the fundamentals of life, i.e. income vs housing, means most of us are poorer.

The left wing are lying by saying that making everyone equal improves people's standard of living. Look at Venezuela-this is clearly not true-everyone just becomes poorer.
Venezuela is a developing-world country without a mature civil service or taxation system. Just subsidising fuel and food costs for the population is a mistake, it is not the answer. A resource-rich developing country has to implement mature administration and taxation to really benefit the poor.

This is why the left-wing need to be better at understanding how the economy works.
Many right-wingers have no clue how capitalism actually works.

Too high taxation can lead to more unemployment as labour have clearly demonstrated. Higher NI contributions has led to businesses employing less people and in some cases going bankrupt.
If a business cannot operate without cheap labour, it deserves to go bust. It is only via state subsidy (via employees tax credits and cheap immigration) that such businesses have survived this far.
I agree that raising employer's NI was a stupid move. A tax on providing jobs makes no sense, so employer's NI should be abolished.
They should have raised income tax, dividend tax, capital gains tax, and inheritance tax, to name a few.

[...]
If benefits pay as much as working, it doesn't make sense to work. If people's incomes are taxed too highly then people choose not to go for a promotion as the difference is not great enough to make working harder worth it. This leads to a decrease in taxes coming in-so less money to spend on what everyone wants.
Agree, there is a fine art to getting the rates right so that people are not disincentivised. But someone earning two million is not going to stop working if they can only have one million instead. They are not working for the money at that level, they are working for the status and power.
Yes they could emigrate to avoid tax. Let them.

As a general principle, it is wealth that should be taxed, and incomes only taxed if they are above a certain level, with very careful handling to avoid 'cliff edges'.

Yes, we all want good public services. The right just believe that this happens through creating a better economy.
It takes more than just a good economy - see my first paragraph.

@DoughnutDreamer they do but I don’t think those voting quite get that the issues aren’t a simple solution. Tge guy I know voted in in Suffolk is a well known conman - he’s only going to be interested in opportunities for backhanders .

”…they don’t care who it is because they’ve carefully ensured it won’t be them”. You are making an assumption. But switch off to the reality if it makes you feel better…meanwhile Reform are becoming increasingly popular.

…and another thread! What is it with Reform voters? Get over it!

Some do, many don’t. And this is the worry. It’s a knee jerk reaction to much bigger, difficult to solve problems.

You do need people to take a risk to say start a small business. Which can then employ other people, including adult dc on here.

Squashing that means stress over joblessness.

Stop the Boats!

I take it from your post that you don't live in the North of England which is a huge place taking in Cumbria, Northumberland, Tyne & Wear and England's largest county, Yorkshire. It is impossible to generalise as to the motives of the whole of the "northern working class" - whatever that means - so I'll comment only on my experience.

I live in a multi-racial market town in Calderdale and work in a nearby large multi-racial town. I estimate that at least 20% of my neighbours (mostly employed) and 40% of my colleagues are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. Everyone rubs along just fine. The only resentment I've heard expressed is towards immigrants who come to Britain to make a new life but live on benefits usually because they don't speak the language well enough to become employed. For example, there's a couple who live on my street. The wife was born here and speaks the language, the husband speaks little English. They have two school-age children. Neither has worked in the decade plus I have lived here. They are both able-bodied. I have no idea how at least one of them isn't employed in some way and I'll be honest it does irritate me. Ironically though, the biggest critic of this couple is a cousin of the husband, herself a second generation immigrant, who takes a great deal of pride in being British and sees them as "grifters."

"Working class". If you came to my part of Yorkshire and started using terms such as working class, middle class and so on, you'd be the source of much hilarity. Other than on Mumsnet, I've not heard those terms used for decades.

Patriotism. You seem to assume that the expression of patriotism excludes all those from other parts of the world who have buiit a life here or whose parents/grandparents have built a life here. I disagree. Yes, there are a minority who believe England should be for the English, though they've not thought through the fact that some immigrant families have been here for decades and others for hundreds of years so where does the definition of being English begin?

Mostly though, patriotism is a celebration of being British and that includes those whose "home" country is or was in a different part of the world be it Poland, the Philippines or Pakistan. My second generation immigration neighbour who I mentioned earlier is one of the most patriotic (to Britain) people I've ever met, as indeed is her first generation immigrant husband. And no, they don't have an issue with seeing the Union flag or the flag of St George flying. The Minster in our local town has flown the flag of St George for hundreds of years. It doesn't belong to football louts or the far right, nor should it. There is nothing wrong with celebrating the country you were born in or you've chosen to make your home in.

@StandingDeskDisco
The right also believes in workers rights and protections to a degree. However, businesses also need to be able to sack people who are not doing their job properly. Otherwise, businesses won't take a risk on inexperienced young people and those with a patchy job history. We have a very high rate of youth unemployment at the moment.
The right also believes in funding public services. They just don't believe in benefits for those that could work.
High taxation of wealth can be problematic-if those people leave and then we don't get their taxes. I have read and listened to a lot about the different ways tax wealth-possibly raising capital gains tax on profit (not investment+5%) may be a way forward on this. We do need to prevent tax avoidance.
I don't agree that the standard of living hasn't increased. My parents and PIL had to share underwear and shoes in their families. They had no transport and had to walk miles to get anywhere. They had no heating and no bathroom.

It appears to me the only reason many people voted for right wind councillors was to get back at ‘lefties’. They don’t seem to be offering any other argument and the sheer number of these ‘I bet the lefties are upset now’ threads proves it!

In what way was Britain built by immigration?

Pride in your country is revolting?? Liking the royal family is revolting? Why shouldn't people who come to this country also have pride in this country?

If you can’t believe what you’re reading, that’s a shame as it’s perfectly clear.

Obviously other people feel differently than you about the UK and some people love their country and are appreciative of it. Every country’s history has some ups and downs. It’s not unbelievable for someone to feel patriotic. You may not, and that’s ok. I wouldn’t write “I can’t believe what I’m reading” about your views because I can understand other people hold different views to me.

This is the thing with liberals. They don’t even try to understand the other points of view or see where others are coming from politically. They just find it “unbelievable” and shout it down. “Did you get it from Main Kampf?” Is not a response that will win hearts and minds from the undecided and THAT is why Reform have done unpleasantly well and THAT is what is gifting them all these votes.

Is it fine for let's say Jamaicans to wave their national flag, play traditional music and celebrate their culture? Is it only the British for whom that is "revolting?". Should people from every culture be called revolting for celebrating their national identity.

Absolutely. So many people on MN and in the main parties don’t grasp this. Farage does, obviously. Open goal.

I'm white working class, and I live in a poor, majority-Muslim-based area (I mention the religion because it's had problems with men of Pakistani origin preying on young girls). I still wouldn't vote for Reform.

There's not a party available that has anything to offer me or my family. The one that comes closest is still Labour. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Reform are ridiculous.

What flag would you suggest for the future? Genuine question.

Wow, throwing out the 'grooming gangs' lies now are we?

I guarantee that 99% of grooming gangs operating in your area are white British

I think you need to provide a link, or some evidence, for this.

@InstantlyBella you're just trolling, you've been reported.

Well if you must know, I am actually in favour of creating a new inclusive flag and changing the name of the country to be less oppressive to people living here who have descendants that have been harmed by my ancestors over the last 1000 years.

Not sure we are quite ready for that conversation just yet however, sadly.

Great post @AcquadiP !

What would the flag look like? What would the country be called? How much of the country would be renamed, and would you be asking people's opinions about this?
Genuinely interested!