Why don’t Labour get it?

[MincePiesAndStilton]

Discussing with DH yesterday about the general state the country is in. Am I being daft, or is it not that hard to fix?

• Cut welfare spending. The country can’t afford it and the current system doesn’t promote independent living. Financial support for those who need it, practical support to get those who can work, doing so e.g. young people
• Get building. We are desperately in need of new infrastructure in this country. Bridges, roads, prisons, schools and hospitals to name but a few. Doing this creates jobs and economic stimulation, see point 1. Get building = get the economy moving.
• Invest in public services - stop playing the “fiscal rules” card and start making sure there are plenty of good quality jobs to tax people at a reasonable level at. See point 1 again. Things like oh I don’t know, the Police, Prisons and Border Force to keep the country safe and make it less attractive to those who want to come here and do harm. And before anyone jumps on me, no - I’m not anti immigrants, anti asylum seekers or anything else. Some people need our help. Some people want to come here and sexually assault women and children. Those two sets of people need treating very differently.

Instead, what we’re going to get is more tax rises, fewer services, more welfare and no progress on immigration. That will let Reform in through the back door and then we’re in real trouble.

What am I missing?

On your first point about welfare, they (“they” being the front bench) tried to cut welfare and no one was happy about it. You can’t say it was a widely popular change, just read the MN threads at the time. The Tories said it was cruel (despite their manifesto saying they’d cut more than double what Labour was going to, and I don’t see how that was possible without them being cruel by their own definition), and the Labour backbench wouldn’t support it.
Everyone lost their minds over the WFA changes.
So what specific (not vague “support for those who need it”) changes would you bring in that would get through and have public support - I assume you want it to have public support since you want to keep Reform out.

And scrapping the two child benefit cap, which I think is pretty much guaranteed now, is a Reform policy. They support that increased welfare.

The one thing they could do to solve some of the issues is cutting the triple lock for state pensions.

It was so disappointing when they tried to cut welfare their own backbenchers (and the press) scuppered it. Why does this country have so many more people with mental health problems than the rest of the world?

Putting up taxes or scrapping triple lock is political suicide but has to be done - the aging population is crippling the UK

Its not as easy as saying get building. There are only so many skilled bricklayers, plumbers, electricians etc. to do the work. It's nigh on impossible to get a good tradesman to do a small job because most are already employed building houses.

I agree. I'm surprised you didn't mention this OP. Generational unfairness.

Cut welfare spending. Which parts would you cut? The largest part of the welfare budget is pensions. That expenditure has been growing and growing as the population has been getting older. And that's the main problem right there. People are living longer, are drawing pensions for far longer and for obvious reasons older people use more public services such as healthcare so spending on that has to increase.

And you think there wouldn’t be a major kick back? Also pensioners vote

We need to change our attitude to work and our expectations of work. Frankly, a lot of people don’t just need support to work, they need to just get on and work.

I don’t care. It’s going to bankrupt the country. I also believe they should go one step further and means test the state pension for anyone aged 60 and above. Why should people with huge private pensions, rental properties and the like, claim a state benefit?

This is the fault of Tony Blair's "all young people should go to uni". No, the only people who should go are those academically inclined. We desperately need builders etc and apprenticeship programmes, not young people with useless media studies degrees and huge loans. Bring back technical colleges and recognise universities are not for everyone.

It’s not a state benefit. They worked and paid into it their whole lives.

No, it’s a state benefit.

You do not have a little pension pot with the government. There isn’t a little account that says “TwistyTurnip’s pension” on it. You pay national insurance to fund the NHS and the pensioners of the day. They worked and paid NI, for the pensioners at their time.

it is, in effect, a universal basic income for the over 65s. Paid for by the young workers.

How about something a bit radical like a UBI or introduce a 4 day week? Do something different.

There needs to be more innovative ideas explored.

What about all the working age benefit claimants- those working part time or not at all.
Increase the AET thresholds. The current couples threshold is £1534.39 - thats 34 hours at minimum wage - couples can easily work more than that between them.
State pension is earned by years working. If you want to cut pensioner benefits abolish pension credit and stop giving the feckless a pension almost equal to an earned one. Let them stay on UC jnstead.
And stop giving state pension credits to working age benefit claimants - you don't work then you don't get.

Not being daft

but being incredibly and farcically naive and simplistic

Or how about we start taxing the wealthiest in society as opposed to the poorest all the time?

Or how about we start taxing the wealthiest in society as opposed to the poorest all the time?

It’s astonishing how easily some people forget that the UK state pension is not a handout. Its a deferred wage earned through decades of National Insurance contributions, often made under far harsher working conditions than today. To dismiss pensioners as burdens is not just economically illiterate, it’s morally bankrupt. These are the very people who built the infrastructure, paid into the system, and upheld the public services that younger generations now rely on. If you genuinely believe in fairness and solidarity—as Labour claims to, then you might want to reflect on the hypocrisy of sneering at those who’ve already paid their dues. The pension isn’t charity. It’s a social contract. Breaking it reveals more about your contempt for working people than any manifesto ever could.

Sadly I think your AI model has misunderstood how the pension works in the UK.

Cut welfare spending.

How do you do that with an ageing population? It also means a sicker working age population as the state pension age increases.

Get building

Great idea, we need to overhaul the planning system first

Invest in public services

And the money for this comes from?

If you take all the current spending on welfare including state pensions and housing benefit and divi it between everyone in the country it comes to approx £300 a month person.
How are the millions who can't/won't work going to live on that?

Instead, what we’re going to get is more tax rises, fewer services, more welfare and no progress on immigration

I don't disagree with the above, the demographics and lack of investment since 08 makes it's inevitable.

Everyone lost their minds over the WFA changes.

They means tested it, the outcry was ridiculous!

That’s two separate groups though.

can’t work? You should be looked after by the government. Won’t work? Okay, that’s your choice, good luck.

Jean-Claude Junker put it best: politicians the world over know what needs to be done, just not how to get re-elected having done it