Why don’t Labour get it?

[MincePiesAndStilton]

Discussing with DH yesterday about the general state the country is in. Am I being daft, or is it not that hard to fix?

• Cut welfare spending. The country can’t afford it and the current system doesn’t promote independent living. Financial support for those who need it, practical support to get those who can work, doing so e.g. young people
• Get building. We are desperately in need of new infrastructure in this country. Bridges, roads, prisons, schools and hospitals to name but a few. Doing this creates jobs and economic stimulation, see point 1. Get building = get the economy moving.
• Invest in public services - stop playing the “fiscal rules” card and start making sure there are plenty of good quality jobs to tax people at a reasonable level at. See point 1 again. Things like oh I don’t know, the Police, Prisons and Border Force to keep the country safe and make it less attractive to those who want to come here and do harm. And before anyone jumps on me, no - I’m not anti immigrants, anti asylum seekers or anything else. Some people need our help. Some people want to come here and sexually assault women and children. Those two sets of people need treating very differently.

Instead, what we’re going to get is more tax rises, fewer services, more welfare and no progress on immigration. That will let Reform in through the back door and then we’re in real trouble.

What am I missing?

I don't even think there are enough young people to fight back? people have no idea how much the demographics have changed!

Labour can’t (or won’t) be able to “fix” the damage from 2008, COVID and Brexit in a few months or probably even a few years.Nor will any successive government do so by just trying to shave portions of the welfare costs.

If it's fixable it will take years

@Teribus21 so what is the solution?

Everyone will have to face the pain of an emergency budget sooner or later.

The problem is everyone hasn't shared the burden.

So you agree with me? the social contract for the young is broken.

It's not broken YET. That's what I'm saying. Fight for your rights before the contract is broken, stop being defeatist.

@senua what makes you think I don't fight for my rights? However I asked you why it was shameful for younger people to complain?

Labour, and to be fair previous governments, need to stop rewarding irresponsibility.

If you're depressed, well frankly the best thing for you is to get a job. And yes I have been profoundly depressed after bereavement but having to still work probably saved me.

The poor me victim culture in this country is what needs to stop. But for some reason our benefit system encourages it.

Those who are saying pensioners have paid in all their lives, are you honestly saying all pensioners? Every single one? If that’s the case there would be no need for pension credit.

The whole system is fucked up. The very people who are providing the services for everyone else are depressed, anxious and some even suicidal. Some are using food banks because they can’t afford to live on a full time wage. I personally know of 2 paramedics who have died by suicide this year due to being unable to see a way out of this shit show of a life and if I didn’t have a child, I’d be joining them.

Dare I suggest that your friends may not be a statistically representative sample of the workforce as a whole? There used to be an argument that public sector pay was lower than private sector pay and their generous pensions made up for this but median public sector pay is now higher than private sector pay. researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf#:~:text=In%20April%202024%2C%20median%20weekly%20earnings%20for,private%20sector's%20greater%20use%20of%20furlough%20(when

You might be fighting but a lot of younger generations aren't. They complain but do nothing, and start eyeing up other peoples' money. That's the shameful bit.

So to sum up, everyone thinks everyone else is entitled and should pay more, apart from the group they themselves belong to, which has been unfairly treated and deserves its fair share of help.

I think this demonstrates why you're unfortunately wrong OP in saying our economic woes are "not that hard to fix".

Welfare Spending must be cut, we cannot afford to have so many people not working.
So many have had advice about going back to employment but still they dodge it. I am not saying 'starve them back to work' but life for many is just too easy.
If they do this and get rid of at least 50% of the migrants I will know that Labour is serious. Then and only then will I not object (too much) about losing our Triple Lock. That does have to go for a few years.

It could be a progressive reduction. 10% in month 1, 20% in month 2 etc. Most people would find a job as the pressure built.

They complain but do nothing, and start eyeing up other peoples' money.

It's shameful you have so much contempt for young people and a lack of understanding.

The problem here is that the ‘right’ you are advocating for is to take more from the public finances than one put in. That’s a right that it is literally, logically impossible for everyone (or every generation) to avail themselves of, at least over the long term. The system must break if they do.

You advice is like fighting for the ‘right’ to put more carbon into the atmosphere than you take out. It works if some do. It fails if all do. It’s socially selfish advice.

We have one of the lowest old age pensions in Europe. Many of today's retirees were working when there wasn't equal pay for women, ( eg the National Association for School Masters ( NAS) campaigned against equal pay for women and split form the NUT of this) or worse women were sacked ( eg banks) if they married. In addition because of the shameful 11+ exam most children had to leave school at 15 and had few opportunities to get qualifications ie O levels, A levels etc and well paid jobs. This particularly impacted on girls because in the main Grammar Schools were single sex so girls who got better results than boys at 10/11 had their life chances cut as there were roughly the same number of Grammar places for both sexes. Women were, of course largely prevented from getting jobs in trades. Also women who paid only the married women's stamp, got no pension at all in their own right but relied on approximately 60% of whatever their husband

There were far fewer places at Uni for women than men so eg about 3 colleges at Cambridge for women v 30 for men. Women were one allowed a fraction of the places eg for medicine etc., prevented for applying eg for Maths as women 'didn't have the right minds '. Prejudice against promoting 11ng women was rife ( until the Labour Equality Acts).

There was also little job security so dockers eg had to line up each morning and hope to be picked for work that day. ( The current Labour plans, minimum wage, sick pay from day 1, plans for job security etc are widely welcomed ( even by Reform voters).

We need people to pay their fair of tax. It is naive to think that the 'Rich' millionaires will leave in large numbers if they are taxed fairly. Of the multi millionaires ie 3,060,000 only 0.3% left in 2024. We don't know how many more or less arrived.

It is shameful that we tax multi millionaires so little ( if at all ) in this country. There are so many ways to off shore, use trusts etc to avoid taxes. Eg the Duke of Westminster, one of the richest men in the UK, has 9,884 £BILLION. He paid no tax whatsoever on inheriting his fortune because of the 'prudential' use of trusts etc. whereas most people will be paying inheritance tax on getting over £325,000.( £500,000 if you give your estate including your house to your children eg).

We have a very low birth rate 1.41 when we need 2.1 to maintain the population. In a few years the bulge population post WW2 will be gone. We desperately need young migrants to come to this country - instead of which some (ie Reform ) are demonising them even when they are refugees who are fleeing countries with awful regimes. Reminiscent of our Government refusing entry to WW2 refugees, especially Jews, fleeing the Holocaust. Migrants are ambitious, cheap ( we haven't had to pay for their births in hospital, education etc.) and desperately want to work.

There is nothing truer than the old saying 'a people that doesn't know its own history is doomed to relive it.'

We have one of the lowest old age pensions in Europe

@ElizaMulvil you need to read more about other countries pensions rather than listen to soundbites.

The UK has a much higher reliance on private pensions so overall income isn't that different.

And because it's a benefit it's flat whereas other countries base it on earnings. It's the maximum pensions in other countries that pushes their average up.

We have a very low birth rate 1.41 when we need 2.1 to maintain the population. I

Because in party because younger people can't afford dc, we offer very little support compared to other European countries.

Other European countries also fund their benefits with higher social security taxes for employees and employers but look at the outrage over labour increasing employers NI.

Agreed. But combined with this is the “single solution” deflection mentality e.g. cut immigration, triple lock, benefits etc. etc. ALL of which need to be done, not just one. We will all face the coming pain, deservedly or not.

People always focus on unemployment but benefits for the unemployed are a tiny part of the welfare budget. The vast majority is spent on pensions and disability benefits.

And whilst it sounds popular to somehow force people to work, if you have ever employed people you will know there is a small percentage of the population who are completely incapable of holding a job. You can take their money away and they will just starve because they are completely incapable of the discipline required to do a job.

It is the young who don't work who are breaking the Social Contract. (I accept that there is a small number who cannot work).

Crikey you have a whole swarm of bee's in your bonnet don't you!
I'm not a boomer but hubby and I went without holidays, nights out, clothes etc to be able to buy our home.
Why should we get less than those who spent there money un-wisely.
Younguns will be old one day - what do you envisage happening to older people who can't work when you've removed the state support.
Every generation had its hardships young people should remember that. Boomers raised there children without tax credits/UC/childcare support so maybe we can stop all of them and the state pension and even things up whilst saving a fortune.

I'm not a boomer but hubby and I went without holidays, nights out, clothes etc to be able to buy our home.

Completely normal, you are not a unicorn.

Boomers raised there children without tax credits/UC/childcare support so maybe we can stop all of them and the state pension and even things up whilst saving a fortune.

The above are not universal benefits so plenty of today's working families don't get them. Let's not forgot more social
housing in the past, family allowance which wasn't means tested and mortgage interest rate relief....

Who is?

All a pittance compared to the amounts paid in UC tops etc.
I appreciate life is hard for many now including belueve it or not some older people but it means we all need to make changes. Not just start a money grab on anybody over pension age