Why don’t Labour get it?

[MincePiesAndStilton]

Discussing with DH yesterday about the general state the country is in. Am I being daft, or is it not that hard to fix?

• Cut welfare spending. The country can’t afford it and the current system doesn’t promote independent living. Financial support for those who need it, practical support to get those who can work, doing so e.g. young people
• Get building. We are desperately in need of new infrastructure in this country. Bridges, roads, prisons, schools and hospitals to name but a few. Doing this creates jobs and economic stimulation, see point 1. Get building = get the economy moving.
• Invest in public services - stop playing the “fiscal rules” card and start making sure there are plenty of good quality jobs to tax people at a reasonable level at. See point 1 again. Things like oh I don’t know, the Police, Prisons and Border Force to keep the country safe and make it less attractive to those who want to come here and do harm. And before anyone jumps on me, no - I’m not anti immigrants, anti asylum seekers or anything else. Some people need our help. Some people want to come here and sexually assault women and children. Those two sets of people need treating very differently.

Instead, what we’re going to get is more tax rises, fewer services, more welfare and no progress on immigration. That will let Reform in through the back door and then we’re in real trouble.

What am I missing?

Just to repeat - pensioners are taxed on their state pension if the total of their pensions puts them above the tax threshold. So they are not just "takers" but also contributors.

It is the young who don't work who are breaking the Social Contract

How so @JillyJoy?

Unemployment figures are not historically high.

Of the 9m ish economically inactive the vast majority of the under 25s are students (2.2m)

The majority of the 25-49 yr olds are sick or have caring responsibilities (2.2m)

The largest group 50-64 are mainly comprised of illness and early retirement (2.6m) The early retirees are not from higher income brackets.

What gets forgotten is that as the pension age increases a larger proportion of the working age population will fall under the sick category as not every 60 yr old will be capable of still working.

So they are not just "takers" but also contributo

It's the net impact though, many people who pay tax are still net recipients.

However the whole recipient and contributors argument is facile imo. Obviously an ageing population means more net recipients, it's the changing demographics that have created a problem or rather that lack of planning.

@Gingernessy a pittance? how do you quantify the cost of social housing? particularly when a large proportion of UC is based on housing costs?

I appreciate life is hard for many now including belueve it or not some older people but it means we all need to make changes. Not just start a money grab on anybody over pension age

But changes have been made to the working age population, they are getting poorer, are you not aware of this?
Do you really see pausing the triple lock as a money grab?

No not pausing the triple lock but others on this thread seem to saying the state pension should go full stop.

@bowlybowl Recently the figures for NEETS were published, they were high, these are some of the people who are breaking the social contract. Spurious health claims mainly.
Reduce or remove their benefits.

Ok but why not the cut the unemployed bit. You have to start somewhere. Why not start on the easy bit.

@Gingernessy I didn't see anyone say the state pension should be completely abolished, I can't see that happening and it wouldn't make sense

@JillyJoy why are only NEETs who don't work breaking the social contract? Why not the same for a 30 yr old or 50 yr old?

Spurious health claims mainly.

Again are spurious health claims linked to a specific age?

Reduce or remove their benefits.

I think it should be the same policy regardless of age.

@Bumblebee72 unemployment benefits are much lower than they were in the past. How can you have 100% employment?

@bowlybowl Yes you are quite right all skivers should be treated the same regardless of age or excuse. We ought not to be taxing workers to fund the lazy who organise easy lives for themselves.

All Starmer wants to do is screw anyone who gets off the a==e to look after themselves and support immigrants and the idle
His increases in Ni corp tax and wages have resulted in enormous redundancies
A guy I know has moved his company that employed 104 people to India
They are deranged

Unfortunately I don't think there are enough of these 'lazy skivers' for it to make much difference.

It isn't binary 100% or nothing. Of course it can be reduced.

The idle vote labour - that is the reason.

@Bumblebee72 but unemployment isn't historically high?

So what? That can still be reduced.

We can't have low taxes and good public services. With the changing demographics and the lack of investment since the 08 crash (which we never recovered from) I'm not sure if we can have good public services with high taxes.

So what? That can still be reduced.

It's an odd thing to focus on with all the more pressing issues...

Every time they suggest cuts in welfare or increased tax for the affluent people protest, remember winter fuel allowance? My parents got theirs reinstated so book an extra holiday! Everyday someone on Mumsnet is claiming they will leave if taxes go up, and they are the high earners (taxing houses worth more than £2m is the latest complaint despite it not even being announced yet, normal people don’t have £2m houses!)

They could stop allowing big multi billion pound companies paying wages that are so shite that the government has to top people up with Universal credit!

Just like calls to “tax the wealthy”, cutting or scrapping the triple lock feels like another grab from this government by people who have worked hard throughout their lives and as a previous PP stated, have trained and educated themselves to not have to do minimum paid work. That’s not the way to run an economy. The majority of us contribute. Productivity in this country is so low. It’s not just our governments that are not performing, neither are the workers.

We need more cross-party decision making instead of them sniping at each other. There are no simple answers and all politicians need to be honest about this and accept that improving the country will require compromises. See Tories sniping about benefit cuts (even though they propose deeper cuts) or Reform quietly shelving their £80bn tax cuts. None of that actually helps the UK.

The government employs tens of thousands of civil servants - I'm sure they can do more than one thing at once. A billion here and there is what is needed to make the difference. Or just put VAT to 25% then we could afford all the little bits of wastage.

I would add that why should people that have never paid in or paid very little get a pension.