Ban the burka?

[TalkToTheHand123]

Question asked in the commons today. Should it be banned?

Yes.

@Feelingleftoutagain No problem. The discussion was about banning the burka so I thought that was the argument that you were making in support of banning it. I completely agree that it should be individual choice.

There are few driving incidents with those wearing the burka as very few burka wearers are allowed to drive. Their % is extremely high though and police are strongly against drivers wearing them.

Shoplifting and burglary is on the rise with those wearing a Burka.

My issue with it , is it's a form discrimination. Making women cover up while men can pretty much do what they want. Doesn't seem like something we should accept.

I think covering your face should not be allowed anyway. It's a security issue...same goes for people who wear a balaclava in the summer.... screams I've got something to hide.

So id ban it out right

It stops men purving on you, so a good thing for women. I'd still ban it though weighing up all the advantages and disadvantages.

Ridiculous rationalisations of use of a tool of patriarchal repression. Btw we don't have a desert climate here, so what kind of "reasoning" is that?🙄
I said I would point out to women who wear these shrouds that they are doing so essentially to placate men in one way or another. These garments are not required by religion, only by men. Women who actively choose to wear them have been conditioned by oppressive patriarchal norms to be subordinate, which is against the western value of equality.

Address men perving. Don't restrict women because of men's unacceptable behaviour!

How would you stop men perving?

The only thing I can see that might stop men perving is other men calling them out. We have to educate our sons (a lot harder with the influence of the Internet now).

That is a difficult one but it’s definitely not covering women head to toe.

Two attractive women walking down the street. One wearing a burka, one wearing a short dress. Who would get the unwanted attention from a pervy man watching?

Just to clarify are you using this as an argument to have women be covered or wear a burka?

@GreenCandleWax You’re free to hold that view — but implying that every woman who wears a niqab or burka has been somehow brainwashed or conditioned is reductive and, quite frankly, patronising.

Many women I know who make this choice consciously — not to placate men, but to express their identity, align with their values, or reclaim control over how they present themselves in a world that often reduces women to appearance.

Western values include equality — but also liberty. That means respecting choices we may not personally agree with. Otherwise, we’re just enforcing a different kind of conformity and calling it freedom.

I don't care if anyone who wears a burqa feels patronised by me if I point out that they are simply placating men with their "choice" to wear it.
What is important is that women see it for what it really is - a means to make women subordinate to men and their wishes, and a tool for political expression by men who make a statement via their women's clothing rather than being brave enough to speak out themselves. Essentially it is male power and male cowardice that are being expressed. Women need to see that and not collude with it.

Neither, but you could though. I was showing how I believe it would stop men perving in response to someone saying it wouldn't. I don't agree with the burka overall though.

At this point, it’s clear that you’re not actually interested in listening to Muslim women — only in explaining their lives to them. That in itself is a form of silencing.

Dismissing any woman’s choice as “placating men” just because you disagree with it doesn’t make you a defender of women’s rights – it makes you another person telling women what they should or shouldn’t wear. Surely you can see that??

If we care about freedom and equality, we have to respect agency — even when it doesn’t look like our own. Telling women they’re brainwashed for making a choice you wouldn’t make isn’t feminism. It’s just another form of control, repackaged. But clearly you know better @GreenCandleWax.

How about we make pervy men responsible for their own behaviour isn't of blaming anyone and everything else? I remember, in the early days of this scandal seeing a CSA grooming gang member ranting about how it was British society fault from allowed these children to behave as they did. Group of people around him all nodding in agreement.

First, I have not used the term brainwashing - it is you who have done so misquoting me twice. I said that woman who "choose" to wear a burqa have been conditioned by patriarchal norms to be subordinate to men. The examples you gave of reasons why it might be "chosen" including not being objectified by men, not having appearance assessed etc. are all part and parcel of colluding with male dominance and maybe feeling there is no choice. I think the examples given are all rationalisations, the basic reason being that men of the culture that wants women to be covered up, do so in order that other men will not lust after them and be "tempted" to have sex with them. So women have to be hidden away to appease a male sense of ownership, or at least the entitlement to control them, and to relieve men in general from responsibility for their own behaviour.
As for me silencing other women - where do you get that idea? If only burqa wearers would actually engage in dialogue it would be great. Bring it on. But the whole purpose of the garment is to prevent interaction. They are colluding with their own oppression and silencing.

Where did I say burkas and niqabs were uniquely dangerous?
Tbh, for me personally it’s not even so much about the security aspect.
It’s more about the very stark visual separation from the surrounding society and its norms and customs.
Being able to see each other’s faces, to read facial expressions and to pick up on non-verbal cues is an important part of our communication.
It’s also about the modesty aspect taken to an extreme, in a society in which we usually don’t tell women they need to cover up as much as possible to avoid unwanted male attention.

@GreenCandleWax You’re right — you didn’t use the word brainwashed, but you did say that women who wear the burka have been “conditioned by patriarchal norms to be subordinate.” That framing implies their choices are not truly their own — which is the very point I was addressing. Calling that a misquote is a deflection; it’s a fair interpretation of the claim that these women are acting under false consciousness as they have been “conditioned” according to you.

You also wrote that “the whole purpose of the garment is to prevent interaction” and that these women are “colluding with their own oppression and silencing.” That’s not only an overreach — it also erases the experiences of countless women who wear the niqab or burqa and still speak, write, teach, campaign, and engage in public life.

The idea that Muslim women must remove their veil in order to be heard — or to be seen as thinking critically — reflects a narrow view of agency. Equality doesn’t mean uniformity or conformity. And feminism that only recognises autonomy when it looks like yours isn’t liberation — it’s gatekeeping.

@inamarina Thanks for clarifying. I do understand the point about facial expressions and non-verbal cues — but I think it’s important to recognise that not all communication depends on visibility of the face. People who wear the niqab or burka still communicate, build relationships, and participate in society in meaningful ways.

And on the modesty point — what one person sees as “extreme,” another may experience as deeply aligned with their values or beliefs. We don’t all define freedom or dignity in the same way, and that’s completely okay. It’s entirely possible to live in a society where different approaches to self-expression coexist without one needing to dominate or erase the other.