Ban the burka?

[TalkToTheHand123]

Question asked in the commons today. Should it be banned?

So the argument in favour of all face coverings (as I wouldn't just include the Niqab) is that it comes down to a freedom of choice to dress in whatever manner the individual chooses.

The argument against the niqab is that firstly in a free society it hides the identity of the person, for example if I said something offensive or that you strongly disagreed with then you would remember my face and name. Whereas by hiding my face I could say and act as I wished in anonymity with little consequence.

Secondly by hiding someone's face it actively hinders integration rather than promote it, causing further division in society.

And lastly in UK culture, hiding one's face is associated with people intent on doing something wrong (burglars, muggers etc) so that the majority of British people (56%) do not support the covering of someone's face in public.

Do I believe women choose to cover their hair, body face? Choose being the operative word. No. I don’t believe they do it because they want to.
i believe many women are told what to wear. Be it men or some book (written by men) .

If men didn’t say what women should wear, would a society of women continue to cover their hair/faces?

Britain has been too accepting and too welcoming towards a culture which neither welcomes or accepts any way but their own

Assuming the "culture" you are referring to here is Islam, then this statement is utter rot. The vast majority of Muslims are reasonably moderate and have integrated perfectly well in Britain.

We, the British, need to stop being adaptable and hopeful. We have to stop changing our way of life and giving up our values

Yet more tripe.

For a start, you don't define who "the British" are, and you certainly don't speak for them as a block.

I should clarify what the my intent behind the use of the term "indigenous" was, since it seems to be a point of contention for a few users.

Halal slaughter and the wearing of face coverings have been a part of British life for decades. British people, born, raised, and living in Britain take part in both, and since I consider anyone born in Britain to be an indigenous Brit regardless of their ethnicity or background, I also consider anything British people do to be indigenously British.

If you contend that there is an extended period of time whereby practices which are not indigenous suddenly become so once they pass a threshold, then fine, however I don't accept that things which have been a part of British life since the middle of the 20th century at least can reasonably be written off as "foreign" or "newcomer".

Traditional, indigenous …….is any of that relevant these days.

Its all about doing what’s right now

Traditional, indigenous …….is any of that relevant these days

Probably not, but regardless, the question of "what is right" doesn't involve Government dictating to citizens what they can and can not wear in public places. I can't fathom the supposed logic behind arguing that Burka should be banned because it's men dictating to women what they can wear, and simultaneously demanding that Government shoves men out of the picture so it can take over the role of Dictator itself.

Should the government be actively campaigning for other European countries to lift their bans then?

and if I was to go to Iran or Saudi for example, I assume I have the right to walk around in a bikini should I wish?

Yes I would ban face coverings in public. I'm an atheist so I'm sure this colours my view, but frankly, covering the face in such a way is ridiculous. Can you imagine if this didn't exist as a practice in Islam and somebody tried to introduce it as their bright idea for women.
And as for the view that the government shouldn't dictate what we can and can't wear, the government already does do that. I couldn't chose to walk down the street naked, or insist its my right to do my job as a teacher (for example) in a bikini. Let's say I decided I was a witch, fine if I went to work in a pointed black hat and carrying a broomstick? Because its my religion. I believe covering the face is illegal in a few Muslim countries as well. Good for them having a bit of bloody common sense.

And the long flowing black robes are a complete pain in the arse to wear (I know, I've been to Iran where women are forced to comply with the bollocks). But, I wouldn't ban this stuff in the UK, likewise I wouldn't ban the wearing of ridiculous, break your neck, spike heeled shoes.

Who comes up with this shit for women to wear? Is there anything similar in any country or culture in the world that men wear?

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

"British people, born, raised, and living in Britain take part in both, and since I consider anyone born in Britain to be an indigenous Brit regardless of their ethnicity or background, I also consider anything British people do to be indigenously British."

There is a difference between indigenous and nationality. The indigenous population of Australia are the aborigines, yet there Australian nationals of many different backgrounds, religions and races. This does not take away from their Australian citizenship but they are most definitely not indigenous.

Similarly the Inuit in Greenland or ethnic Japanese in Japan.

Well I'm sure that the Aborigines of Australia as the indigenous population of Australia still believe that they and their culture are relevant.

No I agree.
For me it’s a security issue.
The police rely on cctv and the ability to monitor via them
Hence
No face coverings.

That’s a completely different issue, not least because we are not talking about Australia.
Its clear what I was referencing.

It's not about your definition of the word it's about the actual definition of the word integration.

If you think women dressing a different way out of fear is a good thing then that says a lot about you.

Should the government be actively campaigning for other European countries to lift their bans then?

IMO no, because there are far more pressing issues to contend with, and I don't see it as our Government's role to dictate to other countries how they police this, just as I don't believe Government should be policing it here either.

and if I was to go to Iran or Saudi for example, I assume I have the right to walk around in a bikini should I wish?

You can assume whatever you want, and you're also welcome to test your assumption out.

But it’s either a pressing human rights issue or it’s not surely? This is why I don’t know where I stand on it.

It only seems to be a freedom issue in the Uk- nowhere else.
if it is was such an important human rights issue there would be protests in those countries where it is banned? I don’t understand why this issue is only an issue in the Uk. Why can’t it be banned here if it is ok to be banned in other European counties or if women’s freedom of dress is so extraordinarily important than why are people no on the streets campaigning for it to be allowed in regimes such as Iran or Saudi. It just seems like double standards and makes no sense

But it’s either a pressing human rights issue or it’s not surely? This is why I don’t know where I stand on it

I don't look at it like that at all. For me it's no more complicated than the fact I don't believe it's the role of Government to dictate to citizens what they can and can not wear, provided the dress in question is not in contravention of public decency and order legislation.

Whether it's banned in other countries or otherwise is of no consequence to me, because I don't live in those other countries, and if citizens there object to it then it's up to them to campaign against the ban, and if they agree with it then it's also not my place to tell them they can't have legislation they agree with. It isn't a human rights issue, it's about Government over-reach and intrusion into what should be an issue that is entirely at the discretion of individual citizens. I'm not a Muslim, but if I want to walk down the street wearing a Burka, then I should have the right to choose to do that without a Government legislating to prevent it.

Maybe but how likely would you? A. You just wouldn't. Why? Because it would be ludicrous to and you would only have done so if you'd suffered opression.

Whether I would or not isn't the point. The point is I should be free to choose.

A blanket ban would theoretically prevent the burka being imposed on women who don't want to wear it, but in doing so you would be simultaneously removing the choice from women who do want to wear it, and removing the choice from any woman who might want to wear it in future. Legislation to ban is not the liberal option, it's illiberal, because it removes personal choice, and frankly I don't care who or what it is dictating to me what I can or can not wear, they can get bent regardless. A Government saying "you can't" is still oppression.

@Rosiesposy So you’re ok with face masks but somehow think the veil poses a personal safety risk to you? When people with the veil do remove it when needed to show their identity. Why does it matter to you that you? Do you automatically assume that every single person wearing a helmet or a mask pose a personal safety risk? Or is it only people wearing a veil?

This, in spades. And @XDownwiththissortofthingX I completely agree with you.

I’m not sure which poster mentioned the bikini, but as far as I am aware, unless you’re in a beach town or by the seaside, walking around in just a bikini isn’t generally acceptable.

What about people walking down the street topless, should that be permitted for liberty?

Doctors and nurses only briefly wear a face mask during certain situations. Even when they wear it I can see their face. People don’t wear ski masks and motorbike helmets down the street and if they did, I’d feel just as scared as I do when I see someone in a burka or niqab. I don’t feel safe. I’m not going to continue this because you clearly think it’s ok to make other women feel unsafe and that it’s ok for men to force or coerce their wife or daughter into wearing a burka instead of just a hijab or just having their hair on show.

Ok so my conclusion on the debate, for what it is worth after to reading these comments, is the views come down as to whether you think people’s individual rights to choose how to dress/ practise their religion (ie no banning of anything anytime) trump social harmonisation ie a strong national identifiable national identity unique to each country. in order to get that normity, to a degree it would be acceptable to ban things (a micro example would be the banning of skirts in schools so everyone wears trousers) to bring people generally into line. One of the social norms could be visible faces at all times or banning or overt religious dress (covering all religions) so everyone is dressing westernised to an extent.

I’d be interested to see in a poll where the country is actually split on this rather than elected politicians just telling us what the views are. I actually think neither view is wrong or right.