Ban the burka?

[TalkToTheHand123]

Question asked in the commons today. Should it be banned?

Falling over laughing at the people who don't know what indigenous means. I am sure that the indigenous peoples of the British Isles would agree that their culture has been diluted by immigrants - all those Vikings, Angles, Saxons, and I'm not even going to think about the Romans and the Normans.

Of course it is. This is a country that’s been absorbing and integrating elements of other cultures for thousands of years. We’re a mongrel race and our indigenous practices incorporate elements of all the cultures that have become part of the melting pot. My ancestors arrived here from Ireland 180 years ago and doubtless brought part of their culture with them.

This is a discussion about modern Britain, which covers maybe the last 200 years.
Britain has a history, yes.
This history includes women becoming emancipated.

It’s a discussion that covers any period its participants choose. You don’t get to censor it.

It does. So how does the burka fit with that?

Well up to a point; I mean a number of campaigners for Reform in Hertfordshire presented our “emancipated” ministers such as Rachel Reeves and Angela Rayner as cows to be slaughtered. Some people behind this ban have their own misogynistic views. Their kind of good woman is one that only shares their views too

Exactly. To claim to be “falling over laughing” because posters questioning recent changes in the UK didn’t include Vikings is just disingenuous.

Yes, full covering should be banned

It does nothing for integration and it’s a security risk.

Yes,our country,our rules,there are plenty of places then can wear them.

You use Romans, then the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and the Normans as examples of people who have lived in the UK.

We were invaded by the Romans, then the Anglo-Saxons, who were followed by the Vikings and, finally, the Normans.
I presume then that you see Muslims as invading the UK and imposing their standards upon us?

I wonder how many people on here know that Islam doesn't actually ask for women to cover their face. I believe actually it is the niqab lots of you are referring to where the face is covered and only the eyes show. The burqa is actually more like a nun's habit where the hair is covered and face is showing.

I know a small number of women who choose to wear the niqab. Nothing to do with their families or the men in their lives wanting to oppress them - and it's because they have chosen to follow a specific school of thought in Islam.

There is so much Islamophobia and anti-Semitism right now (there was a recent thread where someone was targeted for wearing the star of David) and I think, if for a second someone considered how the person who is wearing their outfit of choice reflecting their religious choice feels the world might be a kinder place. These people also feel uncomfortable and are scared of being attacked because of hateful things people say about them when they wear these things.

Someone posted something that reminded me of the Naked Rambler. It's interesting how the State tries to dictate what we wear and insist we do wear something. I don't think it's about whether Burkas are bad or not, I think it's about the State telling us what to wear and whether that's reasonable or not. Now I am thinking about school uniforms....

Well that’s the same for very single country in the world! Every culture is mixed. Even what we consider to original ‘indigenous’ cultures weren’t the first by any stretch!

I think, in this instance, when we talk ‘indigenous’ we mean what we consider modern day culture. Ie that that we can identify from our grandparents/parents and the culture that most of us grew up with.

for instance when I grew up in the 80s/90s no one I knew wore the burka or even headscarf’s themselves were relatively rare. I went to school in a relatively (for the time) diverse school and pretty much everyone had English names even if family were immigrants (I, myself descended from immigrants and we have an anglicised surname and English names). I don’t recall anyone being particularly religious although I know I had Jewish and Hindu friends. Until relatively recently any foreign immigrants pretty much absorbed and integrated fully into the general populace so by 2nd and 3rd generation culturally you would be the same as the population the newcomers joined (again I am a 100% example of this!). Culturally we were a relatively homogenous country with 99.9% western dress codes. A lot has changed in the last 30 in that it has become the norm to say that people don’t need to integrate anymore, but simply form cultures within British culture, allowing us to suffix another culture alongside the word British and that did not exist before.

It's not as easy as this though because girls will not be allowed to leave the house otherwise. This is exactly what happens in France and girls stop going to school. Or other girls were stopped from going to school.

why would the usual rules of school attendance not apply in this instance? I thought parents could ultimately be sent to jail if their children don’t attend?

Fully agree.
As a teenager, there were several Turkish girls in my school. Several of them were completely “westernised”, had local boyfriends and so on.
One girl from a more conservative family was wearing slightly more loose fitting jeans and t-shirts and didn’t take part in residentials, but that was it.
I’m an immigrant myself and knew several other immigrant families growing up, integration was considered the norm by most.

And yet despite all that education and advancement over the past 200 years (of the great and glorious Empire?) you still do not know what "indigenous" means? Hysterical. You do know that even the word Britain isn't "indigenous" - it's derived from Latin. Bloody pesky foreigners, fancy giving us a name they invented instead of respecting the indigenous language.

And it is a discussion about what people wish to say. You do not get to define the perameters of the discussion any more than you get to define what other people think or wear.

No I do not. Do not make me into the racist here. And you really don't understand history. I don't have time to teach you all history and language, nor that "freedom" does not include telling people what they can and cannot wear.

I think you are getting a bit worked up on the meaning of the word indigenous. The better word would be native population in this context. No one is taking about 1000s of years ago- just the last 50-100 years of modern history that we can all relate to.

About 50% of the animals slaughtered without stunning for the kosher meat gets discarded as not accepted.
What happens to that meat.
What a waste of all that suffering.

If it was 1% of animals or even 1 it’s still animal cruelty according to our own laws. There should be no ‘get out clause’.

Im hoping this stops along with other animal charities and the BVC

The very small percentage of women who are being forced to wear a burka would not be liberated by a ban. They wouldn't integrate, they just wouldnt participate at all in society because they would never be allowed to leave the house.

By the way, I take it that by "burkha" we are referring to the one that covers the face fully? If so, I have literally never seen one in the UK. I am a Muslim woman myself, born and raised in the UK and I live in a Northern city, with a relatively large Muslim population. I have honestly never seen and nor do I know any Muslim women who cover their whole face including their eyes. I'm not saying that theres no one in the UK that wears a burkha but I would be interested to know how many women we are actually talking about here?

No one is taking about 1000s of years ago- just the last 50-100 years of modern history that we can all relate to.

Some of us are and attempts to shut us down won’t stop us.

I think what people are talking about is the niqab (so full body and face covering, with a slit for the eyes?).
I’ve definitely seen women wearing that, and I don’t live in a big city.

You are missing the point, but that isn't unexpected. And it's hard to get worked up when the meaning of indigenous is bloody obvious and just googling will give you that in two seconds. The fact is that people are getting worked up trying to warp it into something it does not mean because they can't admit that their education is lacking. History is informative, but people seldom learn anything from it, and usually rewrite it.

OK, lets talk "modern" history shall we? My people were ruled by foreign invaders, and one of the things they did was ban items of clothing they didn't like. Wanna make a stab at who was oppressing people by telling them what could and couldn't wear?

You will never win hearts and minds by forcing women to abandon the burqa where they choose to wear it, whatever the reason that they choose. It isn't up to you to "free them". If they need freeing, they must do that for themselves. Some white non-Muslim do-gooders will not achieve anything except more divisioon, misunderstandings and hatred.