Ban the burka?

[TalkToTheHand123]

Question asked in the commons today. Should it be banned?

Well if it is cultural and not religious then surely establishments can ban it just as they can a bikini?

Why would they not be able to work?

@Gongpostal

I'm of the opinion that if you move to a country you adapt to their way of life

So presumably then, you are asking for a ban on Halal slaughter and so on, but for it only to be applicable to people who arrive in the UK from some arbitrary point onwards?

What do you propose to do about British citizens who indulge in these practices and have done for decades at least?

If you want a blanket ban because you find it objectionable, it's perfectly ok to argue for that, but the "coming here" line doesn't really wash when you are talking about something that has been part of indigenous British practice for decades already.

Because there is an insurmountable barrier to their working. It's a part of their life which is not up for discussion, and whether they could change it or not, they won't and shouldn't have to. And if they're being abused or forced to wear it as many people on here claim, then they have even less chance of removing it without danger to their safety.

I'm sure they can if they can show that turning up in a burka would somehow impede your ability to do your job, or detract from the companies ability to provide a service.

You could also try taking your former employer to tribunal if you believe you've been dismissed for wearing a bikini, and argue the case that they wouldn't do the same if you wore a burka and the two are no different.

I personally believe it should be banned yes. Its a personal belief. I have only in the last possibly 5 years seen restaurants, supermarkets etc advertising the fact their meat is halal. I apologise if that came across as 'those who have just come here's but it's not something I have noticed until recently. I do avoid halal meat as I don't agree with the practice but it does seem to have become very prominent rather than kosher meat which is never advertised?

It's advertised in areas with high levels of Jewish population, but there isn't a lot of those areas and they tend to be fairly concentrated due to proximity to synagogues. There is a very small population of Jewish people who need Kosher food, whereas there's a significant minority of Muslim people who want/need halal food. Most, as in the vast majority of Halal food in this country is stunned first anyway and conditions are no worse than your average place where animals are killed en masse. You really have to go out of your way to find meat killed in the 'traditonal' way.

I think there are pretty clear reasons for the discrepancy.

The Muslim population of the UK is somewhere in the region of 4 million people, with Jews not even a tenth of that. The two markets are a wholly different scale. My Jewish relatives tend to know at a glance which foods are Kosher and which are not, and to be honest I'm not even sure they are fussy about slaughter because I've seen them sit down to meals made with supermarket bought meat without questioning its provenance.

I can remember eating Bangladeshi food 40 years ago, Kebabs not long after, so I think like most people in the UK consumption of Halal meat has been an ongoing thing for decades before they even realised what they were eating.

You are likely already eating halal meat but it just isn’t labelled as such. My ex used to work in the meat industry in the UK. All they did to make it “halal” was to play a pre recorded Muslim prayer on repeat on the factory floor of the meat processing plant. For economic reasons, because it costs money to maintain separate meat plants, the mass producers do this for all their meat. The animals were all being pre-stunned anyway. It only gets advertised for supply to niche markets, which I believe includes Jews as well.
The same is done here in Australia. My daughter worked as a consultant on a big chicken plant in a country area recently and it was being done there too.
Shrug. Not a big deal.

Culture isn't specifically listed in the discrimination act but is often closely tied to Race and Religion and would therefore probably be unlawful. If you could demonstrate that wearing a bikini is linked to either of those things for you, you might have a case.

No. The women who choose to have the right to decide that, regardless of how much we disagree. And the women who don't choose to will likely then be basically prisoners in their house dependant on the male enforcing it's attitude.

It only gets advertised for supply to niche markets, which I believe includes Jews as well

I had a discussion about Kosher food with my relative years ago, and although it's hazy, I'm pretty sure they said that its commonplace for big companies to essentially do a "deal" with a Rabbi, whereby the Rabbi pitches up and declares the entire premises Kosher, and therefore anything produced there or by the company is Kosher in perpetuity, and there's no need to actually go doing anything to specific food items.

Again, this was a while back and I'm not meaning to offend if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but the jist of it was that Kosher isn't actually a big deal to a lot of Jews and corners are cut, rules bent, pretty much as a matter of course and nobody bats an eyelid.

Our police forces, security and safety rely on our faces being visible in public places.
I therefore do not agree with face coverings in these situations.

I don’t see an issue inside buildings though, people these days are still closing to wear masks in shops whilst out shopping.

That’s incorrect and worth noting @Gongpostal your concerns are very valid

Only 58% Of halal meat for uk consumption is pre stunned

58% Of halal meat for uk consumption is not pre stunned

It's actually 58% of Halal meat slaughtered in England.

If you have a live link to that page I'd like to look at it, because it's not clear what their definition of "Halal" meat actually includes, because it could well be animals slaughtered in self-declared Halal premises, rather than all meat that is considered Halal.

I can’t do live links I’m afraid
Its from the British veterinary Association as you can see at the top

The 42% equates to 94 million cattle, sheep and poultry not stunned before slaughter. So fully conscious

Although even 1 is 1 too many!

I think the state should intervene to protect citizens, but acknowledge that there is the danger of further marginalising women who need support.

It’s a bit like the argument for banning prostitution. Yes, there might be very small pockets of women who actively choose it but the majority have ended up there either through force, coercion or desperation. Our duty as a state is to acknowledge that and provide care to these women.

I do agree there is a risk that it will stop some women leaving the house (though that then becomes a domestic abuse issue and needs to be treated accordingly) but equally I think that most (men) will begrudgingly adapt.

I am conflicted though. It’s always women in the firing line when really the issue is men. But the burka is a problematic item of clothing and there’s no benefit to it for women. Just another tool of oppression to put women in their place.

I do think there’s a good argument for banning face coverings in public, unless there is a medical exception. I’d love to see the police be able to challenge the thugs who hide behind masks and balaclavas - particularly the ones who like to threaten women.

The RSPCA puts the figure of Halal slaughtered livestock being pre-stunned in the UK much higher at 88%.
I assume the rest are independent religious meat processing plants outside of the main system that I was referring to. Jewish Kosher meat is slaughtered in the same way as halal. Possibly also the meat is for export to other countries who insist on it rather than the domestic market?

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/slaughter/religiousslaughter

Australia puts huge millions of live animals on ships for export to far away countries. Some of them die in a horrible way enroute - often because of the heat or just mistreated by ship staff. When are people going to start objecting to Australia and calling us barbaric then for engaging in this traffic?

My point wasn't about 'them'. It was about a free democratic society. The fact that we should not police personal dress choices.
If I want to wear a purple clown hat, a christmas jumper or a large black sheet with eye holes, or dress up as a ghost for halloween, then I like that I can make that choice for myself.

Garage ? Rees Mogg?

Oops sorry… Farage?

Denmark had to rush through emergency laws during Covid because they had done what you'd like to do, they hadn't considered what would happen if a pandemic hit!

When people talk about banning some clothing they often show photos of women in Iran wearing mini skirts in the 1970s.

All I see is women being dictated to in what they have to wear in public.

No, I don't like it, but I don't want to ban it either.

Of course we should ban it. In what sane world should women be walking around covered in a black sheet? It’s vile.