Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

@snughugs - what is your highest level of education please?

Reform won’t just bring down GDP, it may crash the pound entirely. It is about international perception you know as well, not just what the great British public are angry about. Remember Trussonomics - if the “market” thinks that of a Reform Government, forget inward investment and watch the outflows. And that would happen even before an election.

Not if it has a positive effect on the economy. And certainly not for the growing percentage of the population who never wanted Brexit in the first place or who understand now the damage it’s done.

I agree on the only Labour politician that can resonate with public. Starmer won’t budge pre GE but he may take over after. I agree on Sunak but the media went crazy on irrelevant stuff.

Starmer’s move from immigration is no longer good to pretty much back to FOM again is nuts. He’s creating a Blair-like environment which led to Brexit in the first place.

Fishing rights
Overseas students paying same as domestic student. That will devastate universities who are already struggling
Optics of going against referendum

Reform will play on all of the above especially #3. They won't wait for any economic gains to appear.

By being blind to why people support Reform you simply can't see how this won't play out in Labour's favour.

It is very likely to have a positive effect. It’s the reason to do it.

It all depends on the issues behind the numbers.

Reform is a one trick pony. They poll high on immigration issues and the
unless the immigration crisis is solved they will stay high.
The new deals with India and the EI will bring more people in, and the boats keep arriving.

I would think that Reform will keep polling high, unless something unexpected, or half - expected happens in the Conservative Party.

"Overseas students paying same as domestic student. That will devastate universities who are already struggling."

This isn't true. The number of EU students isn't huge and they offer cultural and academic enrichment.

But will it have any direct "positive effect" on those disenfranchised Tory voters currently voting for Reform out in the regions and the run down towns and cities that have been left to rot for a couple of decades???

If the only positive effects are felt in "leafy" and "naice" areas and London/SE, than it won't make much of a difference as they're the ones already voting for Labour!

"Cultural and academic achievement" doesn't put money in the University bank account!

I agree, there's not really much Labour can do to counter Reform. It's only the Tories who can stop Reform and that means them finding a decent leader who can challenge Farage and come up with policies that will reduce/eliminate low skilled immigration and grow the run down regions (the old "Red Wall" that Boris won over that has now moved to Reform since Sunak screwed them over!).

The next GE is all about the next Tory leader who will determine who wins it.

That is a good point.

But the EU deal can’t fix that. That’s for the government to do. And it’s fair comment that domestically, this government had better get on and deal with that.

The point is that this deal is going to be good for the overall economy. We would be cutting off our nose to spite our face to ignore the capacity to grow the economy by concluding these deals. We need them, perversely because of Brexit.

Oh well then universities can pay their bills by virtue of cultural enrichment then 🙄
I didn't say they didn't add value, I'm saying they currently pay more so bring in more revenue for a sector in absolute financial dire straits

The 'new' fishing rights are a continuation of the fishing rights deal that Johnson negotiated.

Farage helped Johnson win the 2019 election by standing down Brexit party candidates

Yes but that's not how they will be perceived and spun.

Quite frankly, when people are getting poorer cultural enrichment is not very high up the priority list.

Cultural and academic enrichment is the only reason to go to university.

Ofcourse, it will be spun as brexit betrayal

Amazing that some appear to have actually concluded views on youth mobility and university fees when the actual deal has not concluded! This is simply drama and panicked thinking. Reaction not reason

Precisely so it's a bad move on Labour’s part and plays straight into Farage's hands

No it's discussion based on conversations happening and projections about what may happen. It's called conversation.

It's not just a continuation though. It was due to expire in 2026. It's been extended to 2038.

Yes, and the hope of finding a well paid job after that.

Honestly we can’t spend the next four years running the country according to a fear of Nigel Farage. That would be ridiculous albeit something that the Conservatives tried and it destroyed them as a credible political force

But that's exactly what Starmer did last week with his immigration speech 🙄

If Labour keep briefing they will get headlines.

This reminds me of the welfare cuts where Labour posters were adamant it was media speculation only and tried to squash any criticism. For some the cuts even affected them after they backed Starmer and co.