Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

Precisely. Now do you understand why Farage has created such a furore about it?

@BIossomtoes Reform are not in control of anything much that affects national policy other than rhetoric. It’s obvious Labour voters in some constituencies are anti immigration. Just look at voting patterns. Brexit leaning and Reform leaning. It’s inevitable politicians want to keep voters on side so change their stance.

Time moves on. Farage is allowed to pontificate. People believe him and a populist party is born. Starmer is trying to steer some of these constituencies back to Labour but working people don’t like immigration. Labour historically has. They have had to shift position due to Reform.

Or the general public have just had enough - and Kemi and Farage are simply echoing the opinion on the ground.

It is clear from the polls, Starmer thinks so otherwise why the 360? The direction of travel is most definitely more immigration control and a system that is effective. Quite how far this goes will be for the electorate to decide.

For construction labourers, I was talking about the ones ALREADY here, the ones loitering in car washes and barber shops that people keep bringing up. Germany let in over 1 million Syrians and some are shifting here, for example. And many travel from North Africa via France to get here too, precisely because you can get some form of work, stay in overcrowded conditions etc with people you already know. There appears to be a huge network behind all of this. So if this is happening anyway, raid the tax evading pointless sites that are a front for money laundering and put them to actual use.
And no, it is not left wing to say that. Singapore/Dubai etc all built on cheap construction labourers. We need the workers. A lot of them can learn basic building skills quickly with the right training.
It appears that may actually make sense but politicians are too scared to do anything practical as all the people then start whingeing about how that would encourage more of them to come. It won’t if you enforce properly afterwards. You need to have a strategy to deal with this that makes some economic sense. A proper deterrent going forward, but if your prisons are full and you cannot easily send the existing ones back, then use the strength and youth of these young men.

@Feetinthegrass Having statements in manifestos is never ever what politicians can actually do. They are goals not practical policies that will work. Sadly voters rarely see that and believe any old rhetoric. Eg Reform cutting down on DEI jobs and that will pay for pothole repairs. In their dreams. Yet you hear this repeated by Vox pop interviewees all the time. It’s bonkers. However that’s the level of understanding we are dealing with. Far too easy to manipulate: as Brexit showed.

Exactly this. The people have spoken and as the party in power, they have to respond. If the public WANTED a continuation of mass immigration and were happy with increasing numbers of asylum seekers, I suspect starmer would be saying something very different. I've lost all belief in any politician having integrity; ultimately they're all self serving so will say anything to keep themselves in power. Given his history of pushing back against anti-immigration measures, it's unlikely he actually believes in his latest announcements. Why he thinks wavering working class voters will now return to the party when reform offers supposedly the ' real thing' is nothing but naivety. Deliver on his promises, then we're in a different place entirely and they may well win the next election; IF people are prepared to forgive the wfa cock - up and dependent on what the welfare reforms actually look like in reality. There's a long road ahead.

For one thing you have to take away the incentives. Free accommodation, benefits etc.

We also have to stop granting so many which again takes away an incentice. France think we're mad but that's why they're desperate to get here.

If we have to leave ECHR then so be it. The country is being destroyed.

Biometric ID cards is where we are heading and tighter regulations and immigration systems across the whole continent. Yes you will see pearl clutching but ultimately we can not carry on as we have to date. We currently see defendants given custodial sentences, deported only to return a month later under a different name and passport. We are entering a new chapter, and there will be many changes coming soon.

Good you see it might backfire on Labour but interesting you stop short of holding the politician actually using the phrase accountable. Farage didn’t write it and make Starmer say it. And going by some posts below some pro Starmer are happy with it in there.

On another note agree with @Feetinthegrasson the electorate deciding how far to go.

It’s patently obvious it might backfire.

Feel free to let @bombastixand Labour know.

The lack of accommodation doesn't stop migrants travelling from their home countries does it? neither has the 10s of 1000s who have drowned crossing the Med..
If the hotels were emptied, those 100k would be walking the streets, sleeping rough, robbing for food and cloths.

In order to stop the x ch boats, the migrant has to be sent somewhere inhospitable, the Australians used concentration camps in Nauru, they suffered greatly, then Vietnam got more prosperous, less reason to migrate.

The UK has no Nauru.

So what do you propose?

Tend to agree with this.

Pretty soon these migrants will be treated worse than cattle.

Build proper detention centres and keep them there on the premises till their claims are heard. No way should unvetted people be roaming the streets.

Detention centres? where?

100k is 13k more than the total male prison capacity - building detention centres would take years and cost billions & would need very good security, where do we get the staff from to do this?

Next you'll say army bases - where? most went years ago and again, the numbers!!

Otherwise a great plan.

He is a lot better than Corbyn and they took long enough to get rid of him.

The difference between Aus numbers which are near zero and the Balkans which is being proposed is who goes. The former is often at zero or very low.

The latter will be overwhelmed pdq.

They know.

Where’s the money coming from?

Ask Starmer

Starmer announced on Thursday that the government was in formal talks with a number of countries over hosting “return hubs” where failed asylum seekers could be sent once they had exhausted all avenues of appeal

Like Rwanda you mean?

No he really isn't. Much as I'd never vote Labour, I'd have preferred Corbyn to be PM. At least you know where you are with him - he had solid plans/principles and genuinely believed that his ideas/proposals would benefit the UK, whether he was right or not is a different matter. Unlike Starmer who'll sell his Granny to get and keep power, just for the sake of power, rather than for the good of the country, hence all his flip flops.

Where's the money coming from to pay for the accommodation and other costs of excessive immigration, especially whilst they're unable to legally work, i.e. hotels, NHS treatment, social costs, costs of related crime, etc. It's costing a fortune to keep asylum seekers, administer and manage them via border control other govt agencies, and costs a fortune in court/legal fees to deport them. If we need some upfront investment to improve and speed up the process, get them processed quicker, etc., it will save costs in the long term. That's the whole point of "upfront" investment - the returns are always long term. You have to look over the long term rather than short term, otherwise we'd never build any new infrastructure etc.

A bit but only after people have been rejected. Which means no deterrent and very high numbers, I can’t see it’s possible.

Albania has said no. He’s on to a few others now.

Why would Albania ever have said yes? They are literally telling their people they are hoping to get into the EU by 2030. And some of the people Starmer wants returned may be Albanian… One wonders sometimes who advises on these things and their competence.