Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

Yes but as below Germany have them they have a big problem too. Do you think they might not be the answer?

Agree on the other two things.

Germany are having massive issues in their car industry because they did not embrace the green tech fast enough due to oil lobbying and now it is costing them politically as well.
The economic and political side of things and how you deal with the fast changing world due to technology is very linked.

The uni sector is telling Labour that now is the time to bring in all the tech academics and invest in unis. They are ignoring it. There is a flight of talent out of the US and the Cambridge/Oxford corridor is a great idea, but the powers to be here move too slowly to catch the sail quickly enough. This is where the Chinese autocrats win because they just interfere top down and make it all happen quickly.

Ok. But back to ID cards. They still have high numbers of undocumented migrants. Perhaps ID cards are not what will fix it?

Really? Thank goodness you’re here to tell us that. What relevance does that have to the fact that people cared more about both of them than immigration nine months ago?

ID cards are one of things the British go mad about having. 25 years ago it would have been totally incompetent.

Now I think you could actually make one work.

I doubt Starmer would do it fully. You start by making it a requirement for public services. Even then it would be extremely unpopular

Again, how would you stop the boats?

Physically towing back into French waters, seems to be Reforms main idea or at least thats what their supporters want.

I wonder what the French would do?

So far no one seems able to come up with a handy Island we can send all too or suggest what they would do....

Just hot air.

Sorry, typo.

missed a not there.

nor completely separate and actually exacerbated by the immigration crisis.

But that is the problem is it not? Extremely unpopular and the media kicks up a fuss about anything rationale that would actually improve things. People have lost trust in politicians and every minute thing gets criticised and analysed ad infinitum. And then people are surprised we have limited growth.

Take the British ISA, for example. Of course pension funds and ISA stuff should be invested in British companies somewhat if people get tax relief. But again, resistance, resistance. How do you expect your own companies to grow if they cannot tap equity which is cheaper than debt. And everyone sends their money into US tech instead and then whinges about their data being stolen and dodgy practices.

Because that is before NI increase + NMW hits!

Well, 9 months ago presumably the electorate had extended enough good will to Labour to expect them to follow through on their smash the gangs pledge and now they are watching the highest levels of illegal immigration arrive on small boats as there has ever been.

Well it’s our tedious democracy. The Chinese don’t have to engage if any of our legal requirements.

I don’t disagree on tech. For example, those people could have their visa fees waived and a shorter route to ILR. Would this be challenged? Probably.

You need the French onside for the boats. The French have a problem in Northern France too, because many go there, hoping to eventually cross over to Britain. So the French need to be able to move those going there back somewhere too. So again, you need a cross European consensus of sending back non EU migrants.

As said, EU have id cards and migrants don't need them, they get medical and dental treatment here pls schooling.

Even undocumented people here are entitled to free GP and emergency care.

Eventually they'll be given asylum or not but either way they get to stay.

People are still working against. I’d say it’ll be a voting issue at next GE though. Last time Labour tried hard with the it’s all culture wars stuff but look where the polls are now. People will get fed up and switch.

There is one. It starts in Italy with a gov who has dropped numbers. It’s not going to stop everyone. And numbers went down for a while.

Still not delusional, is it?

Well, 9 months ago presumably the electorate had extended enough good will to Labour to expect them to follow through on their smash the gangs pledge and now they are watching the highest levels of illegal immigration arrive on small boats as there has ever been.

This is from the Spectator:
^^
When it comes to immigration, Keir Starmer has been ‘on a journey’. As a young barrister, he authored a review in which he argued that all immigration law was ‘racist’. As a new Labour backbencher, he called legislation to make renting to illegal immigrants a criminal offence ‘everyday racism’. While running for his party’s leadership, he demanded an ‘immigration system based on compassion and dignity’, pledged to ‘defend free movement’ and backed a letter objecting to the deportation of 50 Jamaican criminals, including burglars and rapists

I don’t think Labour want to stop immigration. Has Keir Starmer really changed his mind? I doubt it somehow, but some advisor has told him the electorate are concerned about it so he’d better say something even though he doesn’t believe what he’s been told to say.

I am pro ID cards. We need them.

I wonder what the French would do?

@jasflowers They’d probably tow the boats back to UK and then puncture them so they can’t be re towed back to France.

“I don’t think Labour want to stop immigration. Has Keir Starmer really changed his mind? I doubt it somehow, but some advisor has told him the electorate are concerned about it so he’d better say something even though he doesn’t believe what he’s been told to say.”

I don’t know what Keir Starmer thinks or does not think. But what he did in his capacity as a HR barrister is completely separate from his duty of care as PM towards the electorate. I am not sure he is a man of “beliefs”. More a man of duty who gets on with the job and it is perfectly OK to react quickly to ever changing circumstances. I think we need that.
And as I have said again and again, I am definitely not some die hard Labour fan, far from it.

Can you say why you think Germany still has the same undocumented migrant issue with them in place?

Those were ranked concerns. They trusted the new government to improve the economy and the NHS, they cared more about those things than immigration.

The problem that Starmer has is that many Labour voters don’t like immigration. Fact. The immigrants of the last century that vote Labour don’t want any more. The Red/Blue swing constituencies might well prefer Reform now. Most Reform rhetoric isn’t going to be favoured by modern Labour, but it will be by people with a single agenda - they don’t want any more immigration.

This is why Starmer had to say something and do something. Lots of their “working class” seats are very vulnerable to Reform. It’s absolutely not just the Tories.

Im actually in agreement with him that too much immigration is divisive. I’m not convinced anyone here will step up into areas of work where we find it difficult to recruit. We haven’t for a generation or two now. I wouldn’t blame graduates necessarily because they are a minority of workers/jobless but it’s clear we don’t want certain areas of work and are happy to import workers whilst paying benefits to people who don’t work. As we have run out of money for housing, infrastructure, education, nhs and just about everything else, we need to get a grip of why we aren’t working. It feels rather Tory to do this, but I’m interested in the outcomes. Yes, Starmer is definitely reading the room on immigration and votes.

I’m not pro, but I do think we need them. They are a necessary evil now.