Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

Controlling much?

You do know when you post on mumsnet, you can't dictate who can answer and what they can or can't say.

Oh the irony!

Economically they are quite different.
Fascism allows for some state control of the economy, but in order to benefit the elite. It's called corporate statism and is one of the basic tenets of fascism. For example, cutting or even eliminating corporate taxes would be a fascist method of economic control.

Marxism, in theory, allows for complete control of the economy for the benefit of the people. Full employment would be mandated, for example. The government would create jobs for unemployed, which the USSR infamously did, leaving people sitting in offices all day with nothing to do but shuffle papers. Industry would be state owned and operated. The list of economic interventions goes on. You can read Das Kapital if you want to understand this in detail, but I warn you that it is a giant bore.

Ok well personally I think Fascism is now an outdated historical term and so is Communism. And trying to define current issues in this old fashioned dichotomy is unhelpful.

https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Fish-28-4.pdf

So here is one of the many interesting articles on Putinism.

And we do have Trumpism back too now. Whatever that is going to be.

Essentially, Hitler and the Nazis traumatised the Western World and made us define things a certain way. Poststructuralism taught us the danger of dichotomies, opposites define each other. Things have moved on. They are not neatly boxed and that is the danger. The system wishes to define and that is why it is being eluded. The OP’s post is a clear example of just that. We know there is a threat, but it cannot be clearly defined.

Fascism is a particular ideology as is Communism. How fascism manifests nowadays is different, it tends to work within democracies or in the case of Putin, use democracy as a fig leaf.

We know there is a threat, but it cannot be clearly defined.

The threat can be clearly defined as far right. There's been a lot of analysis of the current rise in the far right. Many countries in Europe have a substantial far right presence and it's feared America does as well.

@Araminta1003

"Ok well personally I think Fascism is now an outdated historical term and so is Communism. And trying to define current issues in this old fashioned dichotomy is unhelpful"

In terms of usage I would say that the use of "fascism " is actually more popular than ever, for example the traffic warden can be a fascist for doing his job in handing out parking tickets or the primary school teacher fascist for giving detentions for bad behaviour. Indeed fascism is present wherever a person in authority does something that you don't like and used to a point where it is now pretty much meaningless.

In terms of actual political definition then I completely agree that it is historically outdated. A previous poster made a really good point on how would you define Putin - fascist or communist, right wing or left wing. The reality is none of the above other than an unpleasant dictator yet people insist on putting figures or topics into neat little boxes simply because they learnt the names of these boxes at GCSE History.

@XChrome

"Economically they are quite different"

Actually I would say that fascism and communism economically have a lot in common.

Under communism, the ownership of private businesses and industries were taken over and controlled by the state which then directed them.

Under fascism the ownership of businesses and industries stays with the private owners except that they are controlled and directed to do exactly as the state says otherwise the owners get shot. It's just a simpler and cheaper way of taking control.

"Full employment would be mandated, for example. The government would create jobs for unemployed, which the USSR infamously did, leaving people sitting in offices all day with nothing to do but shuffle papers."

Full employment was also mandated under fascism with Mussolini through public works schemes:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EconomyofffascistItaly#:~:text=Mussolini%20%22instituted%20a%20programme%20of,planted%20and%20universities%20were%20endowed%22.

Mussolini's Italy was also the first European nation to officially recognise the Soviet Union and was the major trading party with the Soviet Union under Stalin.

There are some commonalities, but the purpose is different, as is the level of intervention.

Yes, what you say about Italy is true. It was actually a mixed economy and was inspired by some socialist ideas. Socialism was all the rage at the time and making a show of it was an easy way to appease the working class and gain their trust. That's why Nazism was called National Socialism.

The Govt gets money through taxation which they can then spend as they wish.

So the last Govt spent 29 billion on a railway that they then decided to cancel.... money gone forever with no investment.

In my earlier example, Govt upgrades A38 to a motorway, from Exeter to Plymouth, companies expand/move there, more jobs more profit... greater tax take.

Govt can reduce remove tuition fees for healthcare workers, leading to less foreign workers coming here with families, less strain on housing/services etc same with care workers, pay more & local people will do the work, again less immigration.

Widespread protectionism will lead to less trade, less wage growth, higher inflation, less choice, thats not to say we should tolerate very damaging competition, such as we are seeing in the EV car market but it needs to be a balance.

I saw this and thought of this thread:

@Alexandra2001

"In my earlier example, Govt upgrades A38 to a motorway, from Exeter to Plymouth, companies expand/move there, more jobs more profit... greater tax take."

I agree especially as there are already good port facilities at Plymouth that combined with a motorway could generate strong economic growth.

Instead of upgrading the A38 into a motorway the Government chose a cheaper option of renaming it the "Devon Expressway" and at one point it was coloured motorway blue on road maps.

This is clearly more cost effective than doing any actual upgrades to the road.

Because the electorate blame them for things which are, effectively, out of their control.

I would say the electorate blame them for some things which are out of their control. That is what is interesting about the 'change' idea, 14 years of Tories and people wanted change, 4 years of Democrats and people wanted change. Essentially they all wanted the same change, not to feel that working hard doesn't pay, to be able to have access to affordable housing again, to have decent public services that aren't cut or at breaking point.

I've seen people on social media saying Trump won because of woke culture getting out of hand.

It is out of hand.

I agree with a PP saying the definition of fascism is no longer helpful. I think we need to go way further back. What happened in the US is that parts of the white Christian base favour the pre-constitution foundations of the country and its Puritan heritage, which was essentially a theocracy. Trump and other opportunists are riding that wave because they care about power first and foremost.
The threat is in fact very simple: the system of checks and balances is at stake and therefore representative democracy in a broad sense. Those people want to set the dial back 300 years. It matters because without checks and balances you won't get a fair judiciary (and to those thinking it's already not fair so who cares - it can definitely get much, much worse!). Without an independent judiciary, anything goes and the only law is that of fear. A concrete example I heard about Russia the other day was a telling case of how autocracy affects ordinary people's lives: a paediatrician didn't give a diagnosis that the parents agreed with; they claimed she'd said something against the war in Ukraine and now she's facing 6 years in a gulag on pure vindictive hearsay. Posters might think that'll never happen in the US, or in the UK, but can you really be sure? Making sure the judiciary is weakened in the US is one of the pillars of Project 2025. I think voters are just naively assuming either it can't happen to their country or that if it does, it won't affect them...

As for what we can do about it? It's about keeping a tireless watch of what is going on with our institutions and educating ourselves on them as much as possible. Civic education is not a lofty elite concept - it's about understanding the system that will determine what rights YOU have as an individual should you be the victim of a crime or face injustice of any kind. Autocracy = ZERO rights. That's very simple. Autocracy also implies corruption on a grand scale which means good luck ever improving the system once it's corrupt beyond repair. Autocrats do not want scrutiny and reserve the right to plunder their own countries. They are the enemy of every single human being on this planet.

The nazi misogynist Nick Fuentes was doxxed after his "your body my choice" statement. So that's something.

I used to work for a Hull based Telecoms company, someone quite high up asked me what were roads like after Exeter?

As far as she was concerned, if it wasn't an motorway, it was a slow twisty westcountry "road" full of caravans....

Plymouth never attracts the business investment Exeter does.

They can call the A38 whatever they like, its still a dangerous dual carriageway that is often closed due to fatal accidents.

That's the problem, there's been a rise in these incel creeps - who are dangerous - who feel they have free reign now that someone like Trump is in power.

Farage is a watered down version, showing admiration for people like Andrew Tate. Trump has given them legitimacy as he has to all the bottom feeders.

Yeah apparently women and girls in the US have been taunted online and at school etc by men and boys telling them "your body my choice" since the election.

It's unbelievably gross to see these creatures emboldened like this.

Incel terrorists have killed people and part of their ideology is rape. It's very frightening for women and girls to be subjected to this kind of aggressive misogyny.

Trump spoke a lot about protecting women but has released a plague of sexist misfits into society. Fuentes and his ilk are deadly serious.

Trump has also surrounded himself with billionaire tech bros. It really is the rise of toxic masculinity.

Trump is a toxic millionaire misogynist, so it's hardly surprising. But this time, it seems the gloves really are off. It's become a nationwide thing.

For those posters urging engagement with, say, Trump voters rather than deriding them, of course that is the best course of action BUT my real concern is that so many people have taken up beliefs not rooted in fact that they really won't engage or believe anything that isn't in their belief system now. People trying to point out the folly of Trump's tariffs and its impact on the very people who voted for him are being laughed at, for example.

If you look at some UK people's profiles on social media who vocally support Trump, you can almost guarantee there will also be evidence of e.g. belief that immigrants get £££ to live on straight off the boat and handed a council house while ex servicemen sleep in the street.

I've experienced this first hand with an (ex) friend. Presenting them with facts didn't change anything, I was 'a sheep' and I should 'wake up'. I had known them for years but any proof of reality I showed them was dismissed. Saying 'that really isn't true, you know, but I can see why it might appear to be: have a look at some of this evidence to the contrary' was considered really unwelcome and actually reinforced their standpoint. It's all about what they want to believe, based in real concerns, but exploited by politicians and the media so they can point at 'the other' and say they are the problem. Goebbels' tactic 101: the principle of simplification and the single enemy.

The level of disinformation is frightening, and I don't know how we come back from that.

@itsnotagameshow

Hitler's propaganda rules are similar:

• Avoid abstract ideas - appeal to the emotions.
• Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases.
• Give only one side of the argument.
• Continuously criticize your opponents.
• Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification

We saw the same thing with Brexit where experts were dismissed and people were told the same thing over and over again. A lot of it was pure fabrication but if you tried to argue with facts, you were dismissed as sheeple.

Brexit was our Trump presidency. It was based on emotions and populism. People were really angry at the status quo and there was no outlet for that because the left no longer represent the working class.

In order to get into power, the left doesn't present enough of an alternative and many people not only feel unheard but treated with contempt. The left has also lost focus in its purity cycle of identity politics.

Agree 100% with all of this.

I agree too.

I love the idea that, if Left-Wing ideas were presented properly, they would become appealing. To right-thinking people of course.
Perhaps ordinary people just don't like Left-Wing policies.
Shocking, isn't it?