Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

Good question

Expansionist dictator?

I can think of another in past history in Germany. It's a close thing

@username7891

"Globalisation means that much blue collar work has gone overseas - hence the rust belt. Deregulation means longer hours, less money and fewer rights including bargaining rights."

Now I completely agree that globalisation means much blue collar work going overseas, because the labour laws and salaries are just so much lower.

As Thomas Sowell commented high minimum wages, protective labour laws / rights and free trade simply creates unemployment.

What’s your solution? Ordinary people in an expensive nation paid the same as those in a developing country and the rest of the tab picked up by the state?

I agree that this is a really good question, whilst he is definitely unpleasant and dictatorial I don't think he can be labelled as left or right wing.

Which again is why I prefer the definition being based on the level of
state economic control and influence.

What part of his ideology is left wing?

Sorry but how exactly does taking employment rights and salary security away from people halt the rise of fascism?

"What’s your solution? Ordinary people in an expensive nation paid the same as those in a developing country and the rest of the tab picked up by the state?"

Which is kind of where we already are in the UK with working credits.

The problem with this is that the state is effectively subsidising cheap labour for employers, which although it gets some of this back through higher taxation on the companies/ owners etc is not sustainable in the long term as the state will eventually run out of money.

So as I see the choices are:

1. Keep free trade and then try to beat developing countries through a bit more productive workforce but largely through lower wages and less labour laws / rights.
   I personally cannot see this concept of deliberately impoverishing a large part of the workforce ever being possible in a democracy - I mean it's not exactly a vote winner or

2. Abandon free trade through tariffs. The upside is that it should mean that companies will have to produce more domestically thereby improving workers bargaining rights. The downside of course is that in the short run it is inflationary as all the imported stuff costs more. In the longer run as domestic industries and business produce the same stuff then inflation will stabilise.

I know which option I prefer but even option 2 is going to be a tough pill to swallow.

Also, what country are we discussing on this thread it is flipping all over the place, the US, then Europe, then UK? The norms and values in Britain are very different to the US, hence why we have a Labour government in power.

@Goldenbear

"Sorry but how exactly does taking employment rights and salary security away from people halt the rise of fascism?"

It doesn't and impoverishing the workforce would lead to more extremism left and right.

The point being made here is that generally the better off people are with greater job security then the less likely they are to be drawn to extremist politics left and right.

Protectionism never ever works, infact its more likely to lead to wars and extremism, i'm surprised you ve even gone down that route.

There is a middle way, some globalisation but not total, tariffs on some sectors but not all...... up skilling the work force so we don't import skilled labour from overseas.
Using tax breaks to on shore production i.e why can my partner get boots made in Portugal but Clarks shoes are made in Asia? but we are learning, Clarks is soon to build a manufacturing facility in Somerset!!!! yay!!!

UK can compete but Govt has to sometimes step in to help

Clarks have had a manufacturing facility in Somerset for many years.

The Nordic countries, considered to be some of the best countries to live in the world, do not bear that out.

The Nordic countries have a really solid manufacturing base and world leading pharmaceutical companies.

I was going to say exactly this.

Yes, they are excellent places to live and work.

@username7891

"The Nordic countries, considered to be some of the best countries to live in the world, do not bear that out."

They achieved this through lower population density and strong natural resources (iron ore, oil, gas, hydro electricity, timber etc)

@Alexandra2001

I completely agree protectionism is a route fraught with a lot of problems not least industries becoming inefficient and costly through lack of competition. But I begrudgingly see it as a better option than a race to the bottom on wages and workers rights or through importing cheaper labour via immigration.

With regards to "UK can compete but Govt has to sometimes step in to help", the issue with that is where does the Government get the money from? Taxation?- in which case workers are poorer and companies less likely to invest. Increased Government debt which then causes higher interest rates making mortgages more expensive and companies less likely to borrow to invest.

There really are no easy options here.

You're changing the goal posts, you said that high wages and labour laws create unemployment. They don't in the Nordic countries.

How many trillions worth of natural resources does the US have, it hasn't resulted in everyone being able to receive satisfactory employment security and a minimum wage.

I have Scandinavian family and the culture is not individualistic, they seek consensus, the unions are not political and a large number of people join a union to guarantee these employment rights that are key to a satisfactory life.

I haven't seen this film, The Grab, but it might be relevant:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/article/2024/jun/12/the-grab-documentary-review

It's about the current grab for food production and water security by billionaires and by nation states – in other nation states. It's stuff that's not entirely secret, but on the other hand not entirely transparent and certainly not well-discussed.

“From the perspective of a journalist, I just want people to have great information,” said Halverson, “because right now the people that have this information are the CIA, and Wall Street, and foreign governments and very wealthy people.”

@username7891

"You're changing the goal posts, you said that high wages and labour laws create unemployment. They don't in the Nordic countries."

Higher wages and strong labour laws combined with free trade do create unemployment which is why Dyson for example shifted manufacturing to Malaysia.

In the Nordics you have a lot of natural resources and a lower population density.

For example in Norway the Government can generate a lot of tax revenue from oil and gas production but the population is only 5 million.

That can pay for a lot of public sector jobs. Cheaper energy also makes things like aluminium or fertiliser production or data centres cheaper creating more jobs.

The same could be said for Saudi where there is massive government revenue from oil but only 36 million people allowing lots of public sector jobs and infrastructure projects.

@Goldenbear

"How many trillions worth of natural resources does the US have, it hasn't resulted in everyone being able to receive satisfactory employment security and a minimum wage"

The US has significantly more oil and gas resources than say Norway or more iron ore and timber resources than say Sweden but the population is massively higher at 341 million compared to 5 million in Sweden or 5 million in Norway.

This means that Government revenues from such resources are spread more thinly over a bigger population.

High wages and good labour laws have not created unemployment in the Nordic countries. It doesn't matter how it's been achieved, your statement or quote was factually incorrect.

@username7891

"High wages and good labour laws have not created unemployment in the Nordic countries. It doesn't matter how it's been achieved, your statement or quote was factually incorrect."

Because the state can afford to employ large numbers of people in public sector jobs on high salaries with good labour laws all paid for with Government revenue from natural resources such as oil and gas or electricity or timber etc etc.

Norway for example has the highest employment rate in the public sector in any OECD country at 31%. By comparison in the US it's 13% (and that includes a very large military).

You're entitled to define milk as bread if you like but it's still milk.
Fascism is specifically right wing authoritarian nationalism.
It isn't vile behaviour or violence or intolerance. Those things also exist outside fascism. Calling them that does a disservice to truth and makes it difficult to identify what the real problems are. If you called the attack left wing antisemitism you'd be describing it more accurately and identifying the problem. You have to correctly identify problems in order to solve them. Or do you not agree?
Fascism, as we know from history, can absolutely be antisemitic and often is, but doesn't have to be in order to be considered fascism.