Anyone feeling slightly uncomfortable with the scale of the sentencing after the riots?

[TiredWife]

Firstly, in no way do I support the disgusting, racist behaviour we've seen over the last couple of weeks, and I fully believe the major perpetrators need to be found and punished.

Given his background Starmer has obviously been able to pull lots of strings to process a huge volume of offenders through the courts, and there is clearly a directive to name and shame in the media to send the clear message that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. All good, and in the past I would have been firmly in support of this.

However there's something about the scale and speed of the court response which is making me uncomfortable. It feels as if they are highlighting specific cases to 'send a message' and it doesn't seem consistent with how the police and courts have handled previous similar cases.

So for instance an 18 year old has just been sentenced to 26 weeks in a young offender institution for 'possession of a bladed article in a public place'. I live near a London suburb and I reckon about a third of men out on the streets on a Saturday night would fall foul of this! But the police seem reluctant to stop them, let alone charge them?

Similarly the 53 year old woman, first offender, jailed for 15 months over Facebook hate post. Again, I don't condone what she did, but when you look at all the hate that women get online, or the death threats sent to JKR or MPs, there are few instances of people being jailed in the same way?

Justice needs to be applied fairly and consistently, across all groups, but this feels like a response at a level which cannot be maintained/applied across the board? Is that fair?

She made a ridiculous comment on Facebook!

Do you think everyone who says something unpleasant on Facebook goes to jail ? Is this really justified on balance ?

100% right thing to do. There needs to be a deterrent. the fear and upset these people caused millions of people was huge. People scared to go out of the house to get public transport cos they didn’t know if they would be attacked by these mindless scum bags.
the more in prison the better. Reading stories of them sobbing in the docks is like music to my ears. These people are the absolute worst of society.

The judges decide on sentences. The CPS just prepare and collate the documents and evidence like CCTV.

If people can be jailed for lying about who was driving a speeding car, where is the long prison sentence for a Mr Johnson for lying to the Queen, multiple counts of gross misconduct in a public office, lying under oath before the privileges committee (I’m surprised the bible didn’t burst into flames when he swore on it), and could it be argued that if “let the bodies pile high” had been spoken by a rioter instead of posh, privileged de pfeffel, this would be mentioned in sentencing remarks?

Just a rant, but two tier justice is everywhere. One rule for the wealthy elite with the right contacts, another for everyone else.

I know what you mean. I don’t necessarily think it’s wrong but it does make me sad (I can’t think of a better word). Feels like such a waste for someone to throw their lives away for such a misguided ‘cause’. I’ve read the daily mail articles and I’ve watched GB news, I can’t help thinking that the hatred these people get fed (along with a lack of life chances) is largely to blame for people behaving the way they did in the riots.

She openly incited people to burn a named building that would kill people. Do you see other people doing that? I don't.

This isn’t just about the specific acts or stealing, not about a Facebook post or a pair of crocs.

This particular group of crimes in this instance are a part of an organised effort to cause and be a part of violent disorder on our streets. Social media was used to organise and incite, and the rioting was the executive action following the digitally given orders.

Think about an organised crime case where someone orders someone else to be murdered. Should it just be the murderer going down, or should the architect of the murder be punished more severely?

One of the main functions of government is to protect order, peace, safety within its territory. The August riots caused major social disorder, damage of property and lives were at stake. People regardless of background were terrified to enter town centres/ go about their daily business.

If Britain would allow a climate where this isn’t swiftly dealt with, inciting riots online is ok and mass unrest with violence and property damage is not harshly punished, something like this can escalate into civil war/ overthrowing of government, with 1000s of random innocent people affected.

Thus those factors made those crimes of higher significance.

Stealing from shops, breaking a window, beating someone, arson as an isolated incident is serious. This happening in a highly coordinated series of riots is much more serious in terms of how it could affect the wider general public and their safety in GB. The great purge is a bigger threat to general everyday law and order in society.

Raise your hand if you avoided locations where there was rumoured to be trouble last week, or worried about the safety of your loved ones. Or genuinely worried about more violent mobs and clashes coming nearer to where you live.

Someone breaking the window of Greggs as a one-off and without social media amplification probably wouldn’t make you feel the same way.

Last I heard there was about 800 prison places , people haven’t had early release yet.So given the amount of arrests , I can’t see that there’s much room left.

Why are you minimising this?

I do agree with you in that the msm has to take some personal responsibility for what they print - as it does whip up these kinds of feelings.

There was a fantastic programme on R4 earlier about it. On at about 4pm if you can catch it on bbc sounds.

The people of Oldham are well aware of the consequences of rioting from 2001 and there have been none of the shocking scenes seen in other towns. There was an iinquiry into segregation after the 2001 riots and communities are more integrated. Bringing up the grooming scandals that brought shame on Oldham in Rochdale is whataboutery and not relevant to the totally unrelated tragedy in Southport.

As I said upthread, a Labour councillor incited a huge crowd to cut the throats of the rioters a few days ago. Should he get a lengthy prison sentence? Interested to see if consistency applies here.

Yes that all makes perfect sense.

Inciting murder is a serious crime, so on balance, yes, I’ve never called for anyone to be killed on Facebook. Have you?

Isnt he due in court next month? Was he remanded in custody? Also why is his court date so far away when the ‘rioters‘went straight to court?

During the riots in London after Mark Duggan was killed, a woman was jailed for 6 months for stealing £3:50 worth of bottled water.

Violent disorder and inciting racial hatred deserves tough sentencing. I firming believe that crimes of a sexual nature should carry higher sentences than they do, but I also think that stirring up crowds and encouraging people to fire bomb a refugee hostel is equally evil and abhorrent.

I agree, sorry for your loss and there should be far harsher sentences for drunk drivers. Drug driving too.

No as I think it's stopped it happening again over the last few weekends.

Sadly it's rather common online.

Lots of women get rape threats from men with identifiable accounts and nothing is done.

15 months is a very long time. Think about it - stop and imagine serving 7 to 8 months, 220 or so days, in a prison. We don't send men to jail that long if they punch their partners in the face, sadly. This is a long sentence.

These riots are disgusting, racist, scary and awful. That doesn't mean we should lose sight of what it is to have a civilised moral compass, which also means not jailing people if we can rehabilitate and deter more sensibly. Countries who aggressively jail for excessive lengths of time tend to be more violent than those that don't.

A week in prison to make a point - a horrible experience for any average person - followed by unpleasant community service - litter picking, or cleaning public buildings - would be more useful, more appropriate, cost less for the state, do something positive and leave jail cells for people who are a danger. And if a local mosque were prepared to have her come in to actually understand she was talking about human beings (not saying they owe that to anyone at all, and it would have to be at their freely given agreement) then she might herself appreciate quite how hideous what she was saying was. I doubt she's ever got to know anyone Muslim, so to her it's like a computer avatar. Addressing that would do more for us all than wasting a significant jail sentence on an idiot.

Likewise the Tory councillors wife who wrote stuff on SM.

So what's your solution, given the issues with resources in our legal system and prisons?

Should they not have been sentenced because there are failings elsewhere? Just let them off because others get off?

They needed to send a message and in this instance, they did. Yes, of course things need improving across the board. But despite that, I'm glad they've dealt with this quickly and firmly.

It’s easier to gather evidence when people post publicly on social media or there is clear footage of them committing crimes - that isn’t usually the case with rape.

@ElleintheWoods

Great post.

I don't live in an affected area but the library that was torched was the library of my childhood and my family are all close by.
I was however in 6th form at the time of the 1981 Toxteth riots. I had to go though that area on the way to school and remember very well the devastation and smell of smouldering buildings. Not something I ever wanted to see again

The minimum age for criminal responsibility is ten. When do you think people should be criminally liable for their actions? Thirty maybe?

I think the people doing it should have to do a brief sentence followed by a long one of community service. Jail is pointless unless someone poses a threat of some kind when out, because it's like smacking kids - they don't get caught as easily next time, but while they're angry and resentful, they're not actually considering why what they did was wrong, either. I doubt many of these people will feel gosh, what I did was so bad... and they will be martyrs to the knuckle-draggers now, to boot. It costs an obscene amount of money and achieves little, if the person isn't violent. Get criminals to actually clear up graffiti, or rubbish, or weed parks. Do something constructive. And also much less martyr-creating.