Boris Johnson pillar box comment

[stillamum22]

I'm just appalled by his comments on the Burka. In my opinion there's no barrel he won't scrape to get backing from sections of the British population to be leader of the Tory party. Really is Boris reflecting Brits opinions or just a nasty potty mouth racist? I'm curious to get the opinion of the good women of MN

Going further (thinking as I go, sorry), the idea that such a very public garment with such a very public effect can ever have a purely personal meaning is distinctly dubious. The wearers know it is not compatible with western norms. Human motives are not simple.

As a Muslim, I just think he was stupid to make them comments. Not because I’m offended or women wearing the burka are offended, but simply because it ignites a divide and invites derogatory comments from other idiots. The conversation just doesn’t remain focused on the burka, but it turns to immigration, mocking of the actual religion, criticism etc etc.

Same repetitive comments such as ‘go back to your own country if you don’t like our way of living’, which is actually the comment which annoys me the most.

My Grandfather fought in the war for Britain and then settled in England, where my Father was then born. Where am I to go? Or where have I run from to remain in England?

Just so sick and tired of being targeted all the time once someone on a platform makes a ‘controversial’ comment just to stay in the headlines for a few days. And then having to explain how I’m not ‘bad like the rest.’

Just let people live in Unity. No matter colour, creed, race or religion.

When we’re together enjoying our cultures and religion, believe me we are not sitting there plotting or scheming against non Muslims lol.

I get the point, but living in unity means having an accepted set of limits.

Imsorry, his comments might have ignited a divide, but so does the burka. It’s a mode of dress that segregates

Maidsrus - I personal don’t wear a burqa or a headscarf because that is my choice. Contrary to popular belief, the women in England who wear the burqa, it is their choice. No one is forcing them.

I’d never wear one, again that is my choice.

I don’t agree with having the face covered but I don’t judge the people who do. Nor do I believe it causes a divide. People should be able to wear what they want.

But no one can ever wear whatever they want to.
What would we think of a teacher walking into class with a Tsbirt reading ‘I hate kids’? Or even just in torn and dirty comfortable gardening clothes? How long would we put up with a bloke wearing a t-shirt saying I want to rape you? Clothing beyond the purely functional or beyond certain limits of aesthetics has meaning, and it is not appropriate in every context.

However I want to be allowed to lobby against it, to point out the sexism of it, the downsides of it, the ways it is not requred by the Koran (not that there is a God anyway) etc.

Oh the sheer hypocrisy of it . I think bikinis ,6 inch heels , low cut tops and mini skirts are sexist , uncomfortable , and not part of any religious requirement either but can't see anyone 'lobbying ' against them.

Wrong - I don’t think that’s a fair comparison but I’ll leave you to ponder about it. I don’t have the time to go back and forth with small minded people.

It’s my first day off after a long time and I’m going to enjoy it. I feel I deserve it after working for several days straight, in a busy NHS hospital, treating young children.

Educated in England obviously, no student loans on my head. A respectable young Dr.

Enjoy your morning!

I don’t wear them, and I have seen protests against requirements for heels and make up in certain jobs (eg airline hostesses). More and more of us are asserting our right not to have to wear make up in regular jobs. There are currently moves against females being used as scantily-clad decorations in motor sports. So your statement is not entirely true.

I am not quite sure why, but I don't mind the pillarbox comment. I don't expect any better of BJ. Sadness is that so many people still support BJ and see him as having leadership potential.

It is a fair comparison because it is all about the meaning clothes send out. Non language meaning is just as if not stronger than others. As for the accusations of small minded ness, they’re remarkably common when faced with fair arguments that one has no answer to.

wrong if you see the burka as having negative connotations is it about the suppression of women’s rights? Or is it antagonism towards a different culture? Or is it fear of not being able to identify the wearer?

I'm normally very diplomatic and tolerant of people's life chooses but I find the burka abhorrent. The problem with Johnson is that he has used cheap, childish rhetoric instead of directly addressing the misogyny behind the burka.
As I get older, I'm actually losing tolerance for the headscarf too. I used to accept people's personal choices but I'm just getting sick of women having to adapt their behaviour because men want to control them. Islam actually expects both sexes to dress modestly and women don't actually have to cover their hair but men and complicit women seized the opportunity to control and limit women.
Disclaimer- my husband is Muslim so I'm not racist. He shares my views. In fact lots of Muslims feel like that about the burka.

Good question Ihaventgot. I think my very first reaction is because it’s such an obvious public statement. Then a statement about hiding one’s face, and only secondarily the linkup to sex. Next it becomes a symbol of women’s slavery to looks and clothes - men don’t get quite the same level of continual judgement and shaming. Then it widens to include women’s oppression in other cultures. Knowing that the face coverings are a new requirement from fundamentalist religion I also wonder about the power of religion to impose social conformity, and the growing influence of religion in secular life. Lots of things.

@stillamum22 I think I was unclear; wearing a burqa is a socio-political decision masquerading under the guise of religious virtue. In the UK it is mostly not worn because of race or cultural reasons. It's presence has increased hugely in recent years for reasons that @campion and others have mentioned.

Criticising the burqa is not racism but part of a valid discussion of deeper social issues-criticising the wearer could potentially be racism.

Those of you who think he made a fair point, how do you feel about the fact that he made the point by taking the mick?

badteacher agree and what about the growing fashion for breast binders? Don't see many sustained protests about these, damage young girl's bodies and relate to the perpetuation of stereotypes about gender that make them feel uncomfortable about themselves as women. Conversely the growth of plastic surgery in young people.

People fixate often on the Burka as criticising it is an acceptable form of 'coded racism' people either can't admit or recognise their bias or do admit it but know they can't come out and say I have a problem with Islam, instead they ridicule Muslim women and normalising this makes these women more vulnerable to actual attacks.

As for Boris Johnson he is well aware of 'coded racism' it's a new tactic in right politics, it's one favoured by Bannon former advisor to Trump and as far right as they come, just the respectable sort with a suit and a pricey education. Boris has been meeting with Bannon and so would be well aware of the tactic, it's been widely adopted in Trump's speeches.

Ridiculing women in any way is appalling, and BJ knew exactly what he was doing he was playing to the UKIP supporters. The Conservatives saw a swing to UKIP in council elections and there is a lobby that is anti-Islam in the party's grassroots. He is slowly building support for the Conservative right. Depressed how many posters have such strong opinions about how great Boris is and how 'liberal' he is and clearly have never read and are not following the politics of this. If this was the AIBU section it would be less sad but this is the politics section.

If you don't know what coded racism is then this might help:

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/31/16226488/trump-identity-politics-racism

And for those of you who think Boris is so great, and so liberal. At least have the decency to do some reading about him and his move to the right as well as his politics - although he is basically a rank opportunist. If you are going to support someone like this at least take the time to find out who or what you are supporting. Since he is also part of a group with Rees-Mogg (anti-abortion, supports hard Brexit but has already moved his own business out), and Liam Fox. This group and their supporters are advising their business associates to get out of sterling investments because anything linked to it will soon tank. A lot of people made money out of the pro-Brexit vote through hedge funds and foreign investment. So look that stuff up too. If you are going to be part of the support for something that will tank the economy, and stir up far -right hate groups at least OWN it!

badteacher, we feminists looby all the time nad have for decades against those kinds of things. Our ancestors fought agin and again in Victorian times against clothes which stopped women able to run and play and jump and run. There is massive lobbying against women's clothes which constrict then and pushing little girls into frilly dresses which stops them climbing trees like their brothers and mumsnet often covers those issues.

"Oh the sheer hypocrisy of it . I think bikinis ,6 inch heels , low cut tops and mini skirts are sexist , uncomfortable , and not part of any religious requirement either but can't see anyone 'lobbying ' against them."

Bikinis - not sure of teh problem with those although I prefer full nudity myself when I get the chance to be on a nudist beach. High heels fine. Low cut - well I am wearing a fairly low cut top today because it is a warm day - that is not to attract me or in any kind of sexual way that I am wearing it.

(On the economy point above I am a Remainer and it will mostly be those who voted brexit who are likely to suffer it but that's their problem. The turkeys voted for Christmas)

Xenia unless you're independently wealthy with a lot of foreign investments you will suffer too, we all will.

Xenia I see where you are coming from re you clothing reference. But to a certain extent it was the changes in society etc and women entering parliament that changed that. It wasn't a privileged male politician humiliating women into relinquishing their corsets and petticoats.
Is BJ working closely with women to coordinate their liberation? I'll take a guess not. I'm interested in hearing the voices of these women in this debate. I've heard some who are pretty put out by his interference and I don't think he's helped them one jot!

BJ actually does do his bit for feminism. His wife is a working barrister rather than a stay at home wife like so many politicians have. His sister is a working mother too.

Punch cartoons in the 1800s and early 1900s were full of cartoons lampooning female (and indeed male) dress. We are a ntaion which loves taking the micky out of each other as I am sure muslims do about each other do - we all like to laugh at each other and those who are strong can bear this because they know they are right and true or couldn't care less.

Also women entering parliament was a bit later 1918 after WWI. Restrictive victorian clothes girls were forced to wear were going out by then although we still had a lot to fight over to get skirts shorter and trousers possible never mind getting rid of the girdle in the 1950s.

I keep forgetting that in Xenia's world a working mother is an oddity. It was the only normal I knew when growing up (1970s).

How is having a working wife and sister "doing his bit for feminism"?

I find it astounding that Boris can lead us to Brexit based on a load of lies and bluster...but these remarks are the ones he is being ‘investigated’ for