Boris Johnson pillar box comment

[stillamum22]

I'm just appalled by his comments on the Burka. In my opinion there's no barrel he won't scrape to get backing from sections of the British population to be leader of the Tory party. Really is Boris reflecting Brits opinions or just a nasty potty mouth racist? I'm curious to get the opinion of the good women of MN

Xenia has summarised well.
BJ's column did not, in its totality, give any impression of bigotry-it actually read as quite balanced. His 'letter box' etc comments have, of course, been lifted out of their context, and, as expected, the usual suspects are inflaming the issue exponentially.

As I have said previously, I am no fan of BJ, and agree he is a shameless self promoter. However I think it is interesting that Dominic Grieve came on air today to announce that he would throw his toys out of the pram and leave the Tory party if BJ became PM.
Another shameless self-promoter, in my view.

I really do think public figures who are being voted for by the British public should keep their thinly veiled racism and misogyny to themselves, yes. If he was a primary school headteacher he would be sacked for saying less. I hold our public figures to higher standards than Steve from Hereford or whatever. He’s full of his fucking superior background and education when it suits. Turns out money and privilege can’t buy you a clue doesn’t it?

Thanks @woodhill everything I said was true.

I don't doubt it but what was so wrong about your comment anyway.

Must have been intimidating

I mean being shouted at

Like a lot of pps I'm not very keen on BJ but why should our perceptions of him mean he can't comment on the burqa, which for many women in the UK is a political or social statement - if they can make a politibial statement then surely a politician has a right to state his view?

I believe most muslims in this country are Pakistani and the burqa is definitely not a s. Asian item of dress.

So it would be interesting to find out why young muslim women are wearing it (when many of their mums or previous generations may not have)

@Dottierichardson - Unfortunately I am not busy doing anything, but if I could I would ban this all encompassing piece of clothing. This piece of clothing that only women wear. This piece of clothing that makes the wearer separate, faceless, featureless, as invisible you can be whilst out in public.

As a woman I find this outfit offensive. I would find this outfit offensive on any woman, not just a Muslim woman. We have fought long and hard for equalities in this country, yet the same women who would rail long and hard about equalities are very vocal about the rights of Muslim women to wear what they like. Leaving aside coercion and the religious pressure they may be facing, surely you must see that the wearing of this garment has no place in a modern society.

It is becoming a more common sight. The more we see it the more it will be normalised. I would hate to see a teacher or a TA working in a school and kids being taught by somebody who are giving them the message that in order to be modest they must cover up.

I would of course revise my opinion if their male relatives went out and about in a shroud. Not sure that will ever happen.

Why are people saying that women in Burkas look 'silly'. There are a lot of traditional costumes that don't conform... as a child once a year I'd dress up in a tall black hat, frilly apron and shawl and pin a daffodil on my shawl (cute!!); Morris dancers are a treat to behold; Black Rod; Eton toffs at play, the House of Lords in their robes we really are spoiled for choice. We can argue as to the relevance or history of any number of British eccentricities

Fact is it's not any of the powerful elite that are being targeted here it's a small group of women who are already being victimised by racists. Is there no sense of sisterhood in protecting them from this boorish man?

People who move to another country should integrate and abide by the host country's laws and customs.

How many niqabis do you know ? The ones I know were either born here or are white British .

Whether they look silly or not is in the eye of the beholder. BJ was trying to be insulting in his language.

But leaving aside him and attention seeking ways, their appearance is immaterial. It is what it signifies. Let the guys wear a shroud in public, let them keep themselves separate, let them be treated as chattels. It is offensive for women in this country to see other women covered like this.

ThisLady's - I think they wear it to draw attention to themselves; their difference and their separateness from western society (and how they see that). In sociological terms it's a visible sign of belonging. I doubt it has much to do with spiritual devotion as you really don't need excessive display to achieve that. I also wonder if some of them are being just a little bit provocative.
The spread of wahhabism from Saudi Arabia may also be a factor.

@campion yes I would agree with those points.

@stillamum22 you seem to be trying to conflate criticism of the burqa with racism.

Racism is a very serious issue which deserves to be treated as such. Of course women should not be intimated when wearing a burqa, but does that mean we can't discuss what it means in the context of Britain and British society.

Many people who are not ethnically of these Isles are victimised by racists. The burqa has nothing to do with it.

@Dottierichardson also with regards to your point about your grandma, I wasn’t suggesting anything to do with religion, actually to do with cultural expectations.

Was it ok for your grandma to suggest you wear less tight trousers, on what basis was she suggesting it? If it were to imply you were dressed incorrectly for your gender then that too is not ok.
I was alone in a city and on many occasion treated as if wearing western clothing was unacceptable in an apparently free western Country.

I am also not white. If you are white the same people accosting me about what I was wearing being disrespectful would probably not bother you on the basis you are not part of their culture. They assumed (incorrectly) I was part of their culture and incorrectly reprimanded me on my attire. I know this because I have many friends from many different cultural backgrounds who tell me they are not allowed to hang out with certain cultures etc. I take care to understand these issues.

Regardless of religious issues, covering your face to me is offensive. Separating yourself as a separate division in society is offensive. If Morris dancers started wandering around in their gear I would not find that offensive as I can see their face and communicate effectively, that includes visual facial expressions that help build relationships. I believe covering your face is not appropriate and forward thinking in society.
It’s irrelevant the cause, woman have fought and battled to be able to wear what they want without being told to be modest etc.

Let’s uphold those fair values. I am not against women wearing what they want but one must acknowledge some women are being told its more appropriate to dress in this manner. Told by men and women. And as pp have said if the men were to dress similarly then perhaps this could prove this was not the case. I am yet to see the ‘modest’ man.

I find your grandma equally inappropriate in her comments to you if it were based on you being modest and covering up in case you draw the wrong sort of attention to yourself.

My intention is not to offend anyone from any culture but to point out there are many sides to this argument. This is my opinion.

Hi Thislady I hoped I was doing more than 'trying' I firmly believe his comments were racist and I am prepared to stand by my opinions, but I understand it's very contentious. I really believe he was very derogatory to Muslim women. I don't believe he was standing up for them. He name called, jeered and insulted those women who wear the veil. Very inflammatory and in no way helpful in exploring the place of the burka in British society. He is very irresponsible and knows exactly what he is doing.

I'm angry about the impact on women who are already under siege.

Stillamum22
Have you actually read the full article? From your comments it does not appear so.

Imagine the complete uproar and frothing if Muslim men said ok, we're going to cover our faces too so that its not just women being "modest".

Unusual that some are pretending they'd be happy and see this as balance/a good resolution

Hairbrushhead I agree with many of your points but mostly this one - ’Its irrelevant the cause, women have fought & battled to be able to wear what they want’
If it’s about the rights & autonomy of women then we will need to incorporate people who wear head & face covering into our communities.

I agree with him

But don’t think he should have written it, if there is any chance that it increases the stupid people in this country thinking it’s ok to openly jibe and be racist

I also think the burka is worn more for political rather than religious reasons and more people will switch to wearing it now

I think they are unnecessary, they are unfriendly, they put up a barrier and segregate, but of course women should be allowed to wear what they want

This is the thing- BJ and I and many others - just about everyone on the thread here too - we all want to allow women to wear this piece of clothing if they choose to do so. We are all on the same sideo n that . However I want to be allowed to lobby against it, to point out the sexism of it, the downsides of it, the ways it is not requred by the Koran (not that there is a God anyway) etc. And yes people in the UK have a right of satire, to mock, to mock BJ's hair or a woman's burka or man's clothes. It is part of our free society.

Rum boogie just checked it out again. He's still a well read arse wipe!! Sorry. I do find his styles overblown and pompous. He makes some reasonable observations and I agree - he doesn't want to ban the burka.

What is it then that led to him rehashing the pillar box jibe, and then far more damaging the reference to criminal activity?

There's a lot of research into apparently harmless jokes which further alienate 'out groups' You only have to reflect on jokes about Irish people in the 70s, and so forth on to appreciate that this stuff is quite toxic. Boris is no fool, he knows this - the off hand casual remark delivered with a smile.

If the Burka is being worn under duress then communities should explore how to support women with this, but other than that I don't give a flying F**k.

The flying F**k was aimed at MN participants!! Rather the man of the moment lol 😝

hairbrushed You have made some excellent, well reasoned and thought provoking points.

No I don’t particularly want to allow women the right to wear those ridiculous garments if they choose to do so.

Like it or not, that garment has meaning. It’s not worn because it’s comfortable or looks nice: it’s worn because it has meaning. That meaning is in dispute. Those in favour say it’s a personal meaning. Those against say that it is a public, social meaning. Of those, for many it’s a symbol of oppression from a culture foreign to our own: a culture that had no influence in the world (fundamental wahhabi) until very recently. The question is whether that culture and that meaning should have any sway in our own.

For those who find it simplistic, we do have to have lines, we do have to have limits, when large numbers of complete strangers live together.

Oh God where's the delete button - the F**k comment NOT aimed at MN 😵!! I'm going now ....,