Please can someone explain? Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?

[HappydaysArehere]

With all this talk of billions of pounds which we are supposed to owe if we leave and talk of continuing to pay after we leave, I am in the dark. If we walk away with no deal will we pay anything like the amounts talked about? If we are able to do that surely the EU will be big losers as well as us! I am at a loss. Grateful for your input as I am bewildered. I voted to remain but must say the shenanigans being played by the EU are showing them as more like the Mafia than a democratic institution.

You are being really rude now olivia

I honestly dont think there is a need for that at all

Because Misti, Olivia is talking utter twaddle and hasnt a clue. Does that help.

Not unless you are prepared to refute to her points in detail. Otherwise it makes you look like you are just throwing insults because you don't have a response. Her points were well made and detailed. You don't get to call that "utter twaddle" without making any attempt to tell us why you think that.

I think accusing posters of talking "twaddle" while being incapable of putting forward a coherent argument is rude.

Making assertions and being totally incapable of backing them up is worse than being rude it is dishonest.

Name calling is not the only way of being rude. Anyway, it makes me laugh.

Don't disagree with you mousse

@Moussemoose and @Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Sorry about the Monty Python stuff. You're right that it's not necessary, but FFS does it ever feel appropriate.

It's frustrating when you spend time cogently responding and you get this stuff back:

1. Miscomprehension of her own post.
2. A belief we enter into trade deals separately with all EU 27 vs EU
3. The weird assertion that being fiscally conservative has led to Greece's problems and widespread problems in the EU27
4. No supporting argumentation or very weak when provided. Non sequiturs mainly
5. No point by point response but empty insults about twaddle

There is a fact void in these posts that is painful.

I would love to engage in an intelligent and knowledgeable exchange about these issues at some point - in large part to battle test my own understanding.

Less Monty Python and more like Alice Through the Looking Glass.

Keep it up Olivia it makes me laugh

Anyway I'm waiting to find out how a different plan would have made Greeks pay taxes.

@Moussemoose

Now that's unfair: getting Greeks to pay taxes is like asking Trump or BoJo to tell the truth.

When I was working in Greece my understanding is that Greece had hired Germans to help with their tax collection processes. Or at least some Germans were seconded to Greece to help. They found massive disorganisation - eg shopping carts (yes the kind you shop in) full of tax returns in a basement - so complete disorganisation and lack of record keeping.

So my very basic understanding is a lack of operational competence as part of a broader theme of rampant mismanagement.

So to start they would need to get themselves organised before they could even think about enforcement.

But I am no tax collection expert and have heard this only second hand. However, this does not sound unreasonable given other things I experienced in my four months on the ground. Perfectly reasonable expectation.

olivia

not meaning to have a pop..honestly

Its just giving them more ammunition for the whole 'remainers are so mean' schtick they have going

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

You're right. No defence. I'll behave now even if I'm finding it very, very hard ...

But ... on another note: Monty Python sure is good stuff. Never gets old. Might as well laugh at that if we can't get answers on Brexit.

The thing is I really want there to be a good argument for Brexit. I want good reasons. I might not agree with them but I want an argument I can respect.

What scares me is the total absence of sensible reasoning. The lack of anything approximating a coherent argument. I am panicked by the jaw dropping incompetence.

What the fuck have we done?

olivia

It is hard

And again i agree mousse

@Moussemoose

You’re right. I want that too. But I haven’t found it yet.

I have only identified downside. No upside. Not even on this point of ‘sovereignty ‘ or ‘immigration ‘. It’s all superficial and emotive. Racist at times.

But the hard economic stuff is really going to hurt us.

I don’t see EU shenanigans. I see exactly what is to be expected in the negotiations. Why shouldn’t they play hardball?
Which is why I voted Remain. What kind of person expects divorce on the cheap?

@shhhfastasleep

Agree.

Not even sure you can characterise as hardball particularly. Just basic Negotiation Strategy 101. Protecting their interests and the status quo. And using the considerable leverage the EU has to greatest effect.

The UK would do the same if it could.

I don’t understand the complaints about the EU being ‘mean’. It’s not about nice or mean but about what makes sense for the EU27. Whether it hurts the UK has little bearing on the remaining EU.

Good Brexit article link

Horrible EU.

Can’t believe it just did this. How dare they protect us from multinational corporations?

If I want cancer why can’t I just get it?

How very democratic of the EU to listen to a popular petition, too.

"Good Brexit article link"

You're still linking to twaddle from that muppet North?

Unless of course you are that muppet north, in drag....

Would explain a lot. :)

Spin, I had to explain a tweet earlier, 140 characters, we're hitting hew lows.

Sergio Ermotti this week must also join the thick as pigshit club.

Spin, I had to explain a tweet earlier, 140 characters, we're hitting hew lows.

What

You explained stuff...where, can you tell me which post

I will feel a bit mean saying that people aren't explaining stuff and i missed it, its a big thread

Yesterdays Handelsblatt.

"The sluggish pace of negotiations so far on Britain’s exit from the EU in 2019 has fueled fears of a disruption to trade that could hit Germany hard."

We all hope not, but if theyre not going to negotiate, theres bugger all the UK can do.

global.handelsblatt.com/politics/world-trade-makes-a-comeback-845798/amp

Rufus, here it is for you again. I then had to explain the who, what, and whys.

When were being chased round threads demanding explanations of basic economics, who or what a trade minister is, theres a valid argument to say, go and find out instead of being spoon fed muppetry economics from the Norths, and relying on salacious ignorant headlines. (Have the Norths even got a GCSE in maths? Who knows)

If youre interested in EU economics, go and find out. Its all in the public domain, theyre very open about their fiscal policies. If youre interested in Greece, heres a good start from the man who was in the seat at the time. However, if you prefer for example, the Brussels version of lazy tax avoiding Greeks getting everything they deserve, theres not a lot I can say to you.

@Carolinesbeanies

Negotiate what? What is it the UK wants to negotiate? I don’t believe we know what we want yet but perhaps I have missed something.

And I’m also not aware we’ve resolved the questions of EU citizens in the UK ( and vice versa), the NI border question (which kinda hinges on what the UK wants / whether we can still be part of the CU) and the settlement ...

Also: we are still waiting for you to reply to our other questions. Your MTO point was a non point diversion but the other points are still outstanding.

Don't worry. The worst case scenario is only 75,000 jobs lost after Brexit.

Of course that's 75,000 in the financial services sector alone . But it's a worst case scenario, so we might lose only half that many jobs. Nothing to worry about.

Thank you caroline

i don't subscribe to the 'leavers are....' and 'remainers are....' would be very nice if other people could do the same