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Politics

Please can someone explain? Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?

580 replies

HappydaysArehere · 17/10/2017 19:53

With all this talk of billions of pounds which we are supposed to owe if we leave and talk of continuing to pay after we leave, I am in the dark. If we walk away with no deal will we pay anything like the amounts talked about? If we are able to do that surely the EU will be big losers as well as us! I am at a loss. Grateful for your input as I am bewildered. I voted to remain but must say the shenanigans being played by the EU are showing them as more like the Mafia than a democratic institution.

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Mistigri · 29/10/2017 09:38

Olivia You will never get straight answer, or any semblance of debate. You will get diversionary tactics usually in the form of a long post making unrelated and often inflammatory points, intended to provoke a response and move the conversation onto something else (some people will NEVER admit error or concede a point), or you will be told you don't know what you are talking about (even when you patently do have expertise on the matter - I have been lectured on areas of my own 20 year + professional expertise - the Dunning Kruger effect is strong on these boards).

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:01

@Mistigri. Suppose you're right.

@Carolinesbeanies : out of goodwill, I'm going to respond to your most recent post now. But it would be great if you could return the favour and respond to our previous questions ...

Right, so here’s my reply to your post on entering into similar trade-related agreements that non-EU states currently have with the EU (let’s call them ‘Relevant Countries’ for the purposes of this post).
There are – I think – some 55 countries falling in the Relevant Country category. Many such countries have dozens of bilateral agreements and dozens of multilateral trade agreements with the EU that would need to be entered into with the UK and each Relevant Country. Such agreements, just to be clear focus on reductions in Non-Tariff Barriers which are the most relevant to trade today.

Interpreting your post …: You believe that the assurances received by Lord Mark Price – acting in his capacity as Trade Minister – from Relevant Countries are a positive thing.

My view:

  1. Such agreements with Relevant Countries currently reduce Non-Tariff Barriers. As such, they are helpful to getting closer to the nirvana of ‘free trade’, which we should all know by now does not exist other than perhaps within the EU’s Single Market.

  2. It is eminently sensible as a concept to try and copy-paste such agreements in a first instance and enhance later. Very pragmatic and quicker than redo-ing from scratch.

  3. Entering in similar agreements would not be a positive for the UK but merely manage the downside. In other words, we do not get anything more than we currently have. Rather, we ensure we don’t get less. On this basis, I agree that such assurances would be a ‘good’ thing (or - more accurately - ‘not negative’).

  4. I do not know of Lord Mark Price but I take him at his word that politicians in the Relevant Countries would have provided assurances. I don’t see why such countries would want to raise trade barriers with the UK, so it sounds to me credible and reasonable that he did receive such assurances … from all politicians he visited.

a. This is different than getting such reassurances from the trade technocrats, however. This lot are a different kettle of fish. Trade negotiators have agendas they want to push forward, especially from the US which is some 20% of our trade. We have seen this situation with Trump and Bombardier already …

b. My view is that once it comes down to talking turkey, however, the UK will experience delays from at least some Relevant Countries. Reasons for this:

i) opportunism from some countries such as, in particular, the US which is going to want to impose its regulatory standards on the UK to weaken the EU’s sphere of influence (see this testimony from Simon Lowe to Parliament here on the subject of a US-UK deal)

ii) some of these agreements are likely going to require amendment because they may have worked in the EU but don’t in the UK – eg content requirements for an item requiring 30% EU content for exports to South Korea won’t work if the export is now coming from the UK

iii) some countries appear to have indicated to the UK that they are wishing for ‘enhancements’ which will lead to further negotiation and therefore delays. Don't know if true but it sounds reasonable to expect this.

  1. There are also other practicalities slowing us down:

a. Staffing levels and experience at the DIT are low. We cannot process 55 countries, some of which have dozens of bilateral agreements with the UK all at once. Some Relevant Countries are also party to many multilateral agreements – unclear how this gets dealt with in a short timeframe, unicornesque promises notwithstanding

b. Low experience levels may lead the UK to want to deprioritise the negotiations with the US – the largest such Relevant Country – until we have cut our teeth on more willing and less influential and painful counterparties. There are good reasons to believe the US will be painful - Simon Lowe again here

c. In particular, DIT is going to rationally want and need to focus on the all-important relationship with the EU, given the relative importance to the UK economy. It’s amazing that we still don’t know what we want or should get out of this relationship. This will divert resources from dealing with Relevant Countries, sensibly so.

But I think it’s pretty clear if the EU relationship anything but SM and CU access would be strongly net negative for the UK – Rabobank report here.

d. Some such trade agreements will refer to EU regulatory standards, the EU being one of two large regulatory superpowers in relation to trade. How will the UK – without the relevant bodies to carry over such standards – apply such standards or even enter into them without having the institutions?

  1. According to Simon Lowe, we should all be reassured however. Trade agreements such as the ones we are talking about with Relevant Countries do not lead to big increases in GDP. As such, it seems reasonable to assume that we should not expect massive downside if we don’t enter into all such agreements immediately.

This is very different, however, to the situation with the EU. There, given the size of the UK’s trade exposure (esp in services), anything different to what we currently have will be damaging to the UK economy – Rabobank’s research piece concurs.

  1. There is a trade model called the Gravity Model which posits that countries tend to trade more with large economic entities that are close by than with smaller ones far away. This has been empirically proven to be the case. As such, one should not expect too much from a relationship with Australia or New Zealand or even the US given the inefficiencies - mainly moving people around - associated with such trading relationships. So we are back to needing to focus on the EU ...

In sum, whilst I would agree that such assurances provided to Lord Mark Price are ‘not negative’ (‘positive’ if you want to put a more salesy spin on it), I see significant risk in the execution.

As such, one should reasonably expect our trade position with Relevant Countries to be on balance worse than it is today, at least for a number of years. But thankfully, this would not lead to a massive downside GDP-wise.

Mistigri · 29/10/2017 10:07

I do not know of Lord Mark Price but I take him at his word that politicians in the Relevant Countries would have provided assurances. I don’t see why such countries would want to raise trade barriers with the UK, so it sounds to me credible and reasonable that he did receive such assurances … from all politicians he visited.

Mark Price's line was the argument from authority. He didn't provide any evidence. He may be in a position to know things that are not in the public domain, but (i) ministers have been known to exaggerate or even lie/ mislead and (ii) in the absence of evidence we don't know when, or with what provisos, those commitments were made by the UK's counterparties.

I am not saying he is wrong; just that his former position is not an absolute warrant of his correctness, especially in the absence of any public statements from counterparties.

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:11

@Mistigri

You are right. But EVEN assuming Mark Price is not being disingenuous or has heard what he has wanted to hear etc ... there are reasons to doubt we will be in the same position as we are today once we leave.

So it's actually easier for the sake of debate just to assume he has received such assurances. Personally, I would hope that he had. That would be 'not negative' for the UK ...

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:13

Oh dear. Lord Mark Price has secured agreement from all EU states to roll over their existing trading terms in the event of no-deal, which is exactly what WTO allows. This is nothing to do with non-eu countries.

Back to the draining board Olivia?

Mistigri · 29/10/2017 10:15

Draining board? Why the silly insulting language? Why not just respond politely to points made?

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:16

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MarkPrice,,BaronPrice

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:16

@Carolinesbeanies

HUH?: all EU states to roll over their existing trading terms in the event of no-deal

This makes ZERO sense. EU states do not have separate trading arrangements. Perhaps you are referring to David Davis' and Liam Fox's original belief that they needed to negotiate trade deals with each EU 27 separately ???

I'm gonna start throwing in expletives if you don't start engaging the brain, @Carolinesbeanies.

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:17

Because Misti, Olivia is talking utter twaddle and hasnt a clue. Does that help.

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:18

@Carolinesbeanies

I don't give a rat's ass who Mark Price is. I've already assumed he got whatever assurances we want.

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:19

@Carolinesbeanies

Here we go again ...

You can't counterargue can you? Just incapable.

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:26

The only time WTO need to engage, is if trading terms, for want of better words 'restrictions increase'.
(Ill try and use really simple words. )

Where trading terms remain the same, or restrictions reduce, WTO doesnt even apply. You misunderstand the WTO. You misunderstand WTOs existing approval of EU trade.

You misunderstand a lot.

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:34

@Carolinesbeanies

You are clearly a simple being. You have misunderstood your own post which I reread to make sure I wasn't at fault. My response is on point.

The only time WTO need to engage, is if trading terms, for want of better words 'restrictions increase'. (Ill try and use really simple words. )

Huh? Please explain. I don't understand this meaningless drivel.

WTO rules are 'fall-backs'. MINIMUM terms that countries can trade with one another. Anything else - FTA, DCFTA, other trade agreements remove NTBs otherwise imposed by WTO rules.

Where trading terms remain the same, or restrictions reduce, WTO doesnt even apply. You misunderstand the WTO. You misunderstand WTOs existing approval of EU trade.

No idea what you are saying. Please explain.

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:39

More utter twaddle Olivia. Show me WTO "minimum terms".

Moussemoose · 29/10/2017 10:40

Carolinesbeanies

Answer the questions still outstanding before you start slinging insults.

MTOs? The relevance thereof?

Moussemoose · 29/10/2017 10:42

Carolinesbeanies

More utter twaddle Olivia. Show me WTO "minimum terms

For once why don't you show us.

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:45

@Moussemoose

We are wasting our time. Caroline does not have the intellect or knowledge to maintain this discussion so I'm bringing out Monty Python. It's the only thing we are left with. At least it's funny.

Caroline: I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Now go away before I taunt you a second time.

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:48

"For once why don't you show us."

Because they dont exist. Olivia?

Moussemoose · 29/10/2017 10:52

Carolinesbeanies

You brought up MTOs. Still waiting for you to explain their relevance.

Soon I'll start to think you don't know what you are talking about and just brought them up as a distraction.

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:56

Mousemoose, keeping it short, because MTOs are the bulding block of EU fiscal policy.

They are the starting points as to why 15% of the Greek population, 1.6million people, earned below the extreme poverty threshold in 2015.
In 2009, height of the financial crisis, it was a mere 2.2%.

Thats EU fiscal policy. Thats whose paying.

Viviennemary · 29/10/2017 10:57

Wouldn't you have thought that at the time the people who got us into this dictatorship organisation might have thought about the consequences if we left. I think we should leave without a deal. Because I wouldn't trust those weasels one inch to honour anything. Thank God we're going out.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 29/10/2017 11:04

Because Misti, Olivia is talking utter twaddle and hasnt a clue. Does that help.

No it doesnt at all

Thats pretty much what i got from M4

'We are right and that person is wrong and im not going to tell you how they are wrong because its 'blatantly' obvious'

Ive , probably stupidly and naively, believed that there are vaild arguments for and against brexit. And to be fair in the early days of these threads there were thoughtful posts both for and against

Not anymore

Moussemoose · 29/10/2017 11:08

So an economic target is the reason people earn below the poverty threshold.

I'm not an economist but that doesn't make sense.

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 11:11

Well, It seems Monty Python is a propos. FFS, I thought we had an intelligent one this time.

So on the MTO point, Caroline, our animal food trough wiper, has not explained the relevance to Brexit or even why other countries within the EU have not suffered under them. Morever, there MIGHT, just MIGHT be something about Greece that makes this example completely irrelevant - like they lied to Eurostat to hide their fiscal profligacy, like the Greeks are incapable of collecting taxes.

And on the WTO point ... I now question whether our animal food trough wiper speaks English as a first language. WTO rules are MINIMUM terms under which international trade gets conducted - ie any agreements signed are there to IMPROVE on WTO terms. I didn't write that there were WTO minimum rules.

It's like the accusation that the agreements to be roll over - from WIPER's own post - related to EU trade agreements. Is English not your first language, O, Animal food trough wiper?

lljkk · 29/10/2017 11:16

EU: We agreed to adopt all these children & now you won't pay for them?
UK: I never wanted kids with you anyway. Your problem. You pay for 'em.
EU: I never would have married you if I'd known you were such a liar.

n= 0; repeat while n == 0 {
UK: Come on, be a good sport. I know you still want access to my garden & I want access to your sports club membership. Can't we work out a deal?
EU: Do you think I trust a word you say after the way you shafted me?!
UK: You need me more than I need you.
EU: The Fuck I do.
UK: You should think more creatively about a possible deal with me.
EU: Creative means I should trust you again? Hell will freeze over first.
UK: Come on...
EU: Only if you pay me back shed loads of money, WITH Interest!
UK: I don't need you anyway!
EU: Make sure to close the door on your way out.
}

That's what happens if we leave EU with "No deal."