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Trump

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claig · 12/11/2016 08:30

Another Trump thread for those who want to discuss what it all means

Article from another thread

"History Tells Us What Will Happen Next With Brexit And Trump"

www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias-stone/history-tells-us-what-will-brexit-trump_b_11179774.html?

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Kaija · 25/11/2016 00:38

Schrodinger's 1%

claig · 25/11/2016 00:43

'And are the top 1% trying to impoverish and control the people, or are they going to use their tax cut to invest in and employ the people?'

They would like to impoverish the people and most of them pay very little tax anyway with their Floundations and charidees and fancy accountants, but Trump will implify the tax code and get them to pay probably more than they do now in real terms. But they will spend their money and that will circulate and create employment rather than giving it to some government bureaucrat to give as a subsidy to some pals in an insider deal for donations or whatever.

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squishysquirmy · 25/11/2016 00:44

Is it that only 0.7% are the elite, so he's relying on the next 0.3% down to do all the investing and employing?

claig · 25/11/2016 00:46

'Is it that only 0.7% are the elite, so he's relying on the next 0.3% down to do all the investing and employing?'

Now you are quibbling. Rest assured, Trump knows what he is doing.

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Kaija · 25/11/2016 00:46

That's a pretty fancy looking knot you're tying there, Claig.

Night all

Kaija · 25/11/2016 00:47

"The great and powerful Oz knows all"

squishysquirmy · 25/11/2016 00:47

Cross post Claig. I've heard about those charities and foundations, there's some very dodgy accounting in Trump's foundation for sure. some "elites" really do pay very little tax, like the billionaire Trump, for example.

squishysquirmy · 25/11/2016 00:49

Night Kaija. I'm off too please god not to dream about the nightmarish futures thrown up on this thread

claig · 25/11/2016 01:01

'Wtf is "the illustrious People's Army"??

Are you kidding?

That is like Gary Johnson, US Libertarian Presidential candidate, asking "What is Aleppo?" to which the interviewer rightly said "are you kidding?" and Johnson to his eternal shame said "no, what is Aleppo?" at which point some Libertarian Party members tore up their membership cards. There is only so much they can take.

This was the Economist reporting on teh famous People's Army when they were shaking the British Establishment to the core after 20% of Tory voters had finally had enough of Cameron and switched to UKIP. The rest is history.

The people’s army
Can UKIP keep on coming? The answer could decide the next election

WEST SHOEBURY does not feel like the site of a revolution. There are no smouldering cars or placards trodden underfoot. Seagulls wheel and squawk above a grid of bungalow-lined streets sloping down to the steel waters of the Thames estuary. But in places like this—a slightly faded suburb of Southend, an Essex resort that has known better times—the populist, right-wing UK Independence Party (UKIP) stormed to victory in the local and European elections held on May 22nd. Nigel Farage called his party’s success an “earthquake” and predicted that his “people’s army” would cause yet larger tremors in the general election next May.

The results certainly register on the Richter scale. UKIP has no MPs, but won 27.5% of the ballots in the European election and became the first minor party in over a century to lead in a national vote."

www.economist.com/news/britain/21603050-can-ukip-keep-coming-answer-could-decide-next-election-peoples-army

Those were the days. We made history. The metropolitan elite was in meltdown. But it's all over now. UKIP are so useless now that they didn't even back Trump. So they are finished. All good things come to an end.

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Chris1234567890 · 25/11/2016 01:51

nightmarish futures indeed. This was Putin back in July, exposing yet again the western MSM whitewash and manipulation. Thank all our lucky stars that Trump won the election.

Read the drop down text on this video if further explanation is needed. And for those who wish to view cynically, Putin told you, wikileaks told you, and Trump told you. Bury your heads if you must, but ignoring the reality of whats going on is madness.

Spinflight · 25/11/2016 02:12

"On the BBC, they have been having reports about how social media should be "regulated" in order for people to receive the truth. It's like Orwell's Big Brother with the "Ministry of Truth" supplying the truth that Clinton is great and Trump is a racist."

Sadly the left is becoming more authoritarian by the day and as their power diminishes I suspect we'll see some truly draconian uses of their remaining power in the coming years.

The massive weighting of left leaning thinkers in the media and academia is purely a result of this authoritarianism. If these institutions were a true meritocracy then we'd see equal numbers from across the spectrum of course. Political correctness and personal vilification however have purged conflicting views in a self defeating coup. The long march through the institutions is well documented though it has merely produced a self reinforcing echo chamber which only true disciples still listen to. Sick of being preached to by correspondents more interested in signalling their own virtue than reporting news or valuing differing opinions the mainstream media is following the dead tree press towards extinction. With more and more of the left leaning press running at a loss it is only a matter of time.

And with it their ideology which espouses open borders, supra national bodies and restrictions upon personal freedoms and speech is also dying. Trump's victory, allied to brexit, proved that the zeitgeist is moving at a rate of knots back to the nation state as it's bedrock. In the same way that communism tried to ferment revolutions worldwide the more modern communists merely became proponents for the institutions such as the EU, action on climate change and the like.

Unfortunately by weakening the sovereign powers of the state they left a vacuum of power which was almost entirely taken up by the corporations. At first this was welcomed as corporations too benefit from open borders however with the bank bailouts we saw the nation state being held to ransom by the corporations, rather than enriching the lives of the average Joe through increased prosperity we saw austerity while those guilty of, at the least mismanagement, got off scot free. All with the collusion of the media and academia of course.

The ultimate example of this power was their negotiating trade deals in secret. Not national elected governments but corporate lawyers designing the TTIP etc behind closed doors purely for the benefit of themselves rather than the people.

Trump's victory signalled an end to the power of the left to discredit and vilify an opponent merely by yelling racist, sexist, bigot or denier at them. It also signalled a willingness to roll back the influence of the corporations and reassert the nation state and national interest. With it will die political correctness and the authoritarian desire to prevent the common man from complaining. This was twofold. First imprint a reluctance to complain about immigration, in particular, for fear of being denounced as a racist and secondly to enable those same denunciations.

So with the left reeling in crisis and rapidly losing their grip where do they head? Well the signs aren't very appealing. After a period of denouncing half a nation as racist they appear to have realised how utterly daft they sound. So now the groupthink settles, in disbelief and denial, upon fake news.

That 98% of the fake news was aired by the mainstream media goes unnoticed. One US network even changed the weather to comply with the democrat line that Hillary had fainted due to abnormal heat at the 911 memorial!

They are not however talking about silly stories on social media which even the most gullible could spot a mile off - frankly any such story is debunked very rapidly in the comments anyway.

No what they are talking about with fake news, the news that probably turned the election, is wikileaks.

They don't explicitly mentioned wikileaks by name or else it's ten year history of never releasing a fake would shame the story, but it's clear where their sights are aimed. Namely at whistleblowers, at freedom of speech and even at the internet itself.

A decade ago if you'd espoused the idea that the banks picked politicians and the media colluded with them you would have been labelled a conspiracy theorist, made fun of and dismissed. You would also have been right.

Hence the EU parliament voted the other day to enact censorship upon social media and Russian outlets such as RT. This again shows the line of thinking across the Atlantic where the democrats blamed Russian hackers for forging the wikileaks emails. That those same emails are authenticated by googles own encryption algorithms, and that google's executives colluded with Hillary's campaign, is therefore deeply amusing.

It's equally amusing to see the line of attack taken up by the establishment here in seeking to portray the brexit campaign as having been won by fake news or lies ( compared to the lies put out by the government itself, the treasury, bank of England, IMF, etc etc) and even seeing the EU parliament complaining at the coverage those in favour of brexit got. The snowflakes really are having a tough time of it.

Their response though is deeply unamusing, in typical authoritarian style they seek to control and prevent free speech by imposing restrictions on social media. If the people no longer listen to the discredited establishment mouthpieces then they have to stop people from talking to each other.

It'll be interesting to see how far they go with this, and indeed whether it is already happening. A like and follow for nopenothope, the blog which exposed the shockingly numerous crimes of the liblabcon paid politicians, seems to have disappeared from my facebook page for instance even though activity stopped on it some time ago.

One wonders whether similar blogs in Europe which, sick of the extent of particularly sexual crimes committed by immigrants going unreported in the national press, document and map them from local newspapers in similar vein will survive with several important elections coming up.

Still with 8 years of Trump, Brexit just around the corner and illiberal cupcakes crying into their cornflakes as they see the news each morning the future does look much brighter. Watching the media presenters squirm as their dictat crumbles is wonderful. Politics has never been so entertaining, even if it is unintentionally so.

Do you still tune in to hear the opinions expressed or merely to see their discomfort?

Question is just how hard will their authoritarian masters crack down on free speech and what will they do once they've realised that screaming bigot or similar in self ironic unanimity no longer passes for debate?

Maybe the 95% of people who merely lurk would be more likely to join in a discussion, one can hope.

Chris1234567890 · 25/11/2016 02:40

Great post spin. My concern is this though. This is no longer a 'national' issue. These actions are on a world stage. You mention the EU resolution on Russian Media (for those wanting a 'view', heres one)

www.sott.net/article/334753-Hypocritical-EU-resolution-on-Russian-propaganda-is-attack-on-free-speech-and-media-freedoms

or you could look at russia today......whilst its till available .......

Moscow has very clearly stated if they pursue this, they will retaliate. This should concern all of us greatly, and immediately. The EU passed this yesterday and seem set on their course of action. Its astounding. Are we really seeing the Obamas, Clintons, European Council, prefering war quite simply to protect themselves from exposure? Hellooooo, we know whose funding what!!! Horse, gate, bolted?

My biggest worry this evening, the world cant afford to wait till January for Trump.

Spinflight · 25/11/2016 03:16

I hadn't considered that Chris...

The good news is that the European armies are hollowed out glorified camp polishers. Defence cuts and austerity have left them bereft of real capability. So too EU defence policy, which apportioned different capabilities to different countries.

For instance the German air force specialised in recon and EW, ours in Strike. Overall though there is very little power projection capability in the EU outside of ourselves ( which is also pared back to the bone, I doubt more than 10% of the RAF could actually deploy).

A lot of the EU spends less than 1% on defence, and a lot of that 1% goes towards pensions for the once much larger forces.

Saying that there are potential flashpoints. Much of Germany relies on Russian gas, partly a historical anomaly from before the fall of the Berlin wall. They aren't particularly happy about this and would much rather secure their supplies from the Middle East. Assad and Syria of course is in the way of that.

If Trump and Putin make friends then it would mean energy insecurity for the foreseeable future.

I would say that people don't think of the EU as a state actor, though their fingerprints are all over some murky happenings. The Turkish coup being fairly prominent. And the Ukraine of course. Even going back to the Balkan war.

I'm not sure they're strong enough to do proper willy waving, maybe just a flash or two.

Sorry for the analogy!

claig · 25/11/2016 07:53

Excellent summary of what it is all about, Spinflight.

Trump has set them back bigtime.

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Kaija · 25/11/2016 08:09

Strange to say the least that you would have such touching faith in Putin on matters of media freedom.

PacificDogwod · 25/11/2016 08:11

Oh, I am all for meritocracy - just don't see the merit in Trump/Farage/Putin et all.

The heavens above help us all if we rely on their version of Freedom of Speech and information distribution Hmm

Inkanta · 25/11/2016 08:28

Wow, yes great summary Spin!

squishysquirmy · 25/11/2016 09:03

I know several Russians, and they do not share your faith in the honesty of the Russian media.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 25/11/2016 09:05

Is energy insecurity a good thing? Why would destabilising Europe's energy supply ever be seen as a good and safe thing to do? I thought the whole argument was that Trump and Putin being best buddies would make the whole world a safe place?

squishysquirmy · 25/11/2016 09:07

Spinflight, if Orwell was alive today, I have no doubt that he would rip that little essay of yours to shreds, and you would be slurring him as "the liberal elite" He became quite disillusioned with popular uprisings, and was quite scathing of the blind trust people like you put in populist, nationalist, leaders.

squishysquirmy · 25/11/2016 09:12

Although as clever as Orwell was, he never saw Post-Truth coming. Winston Smith would certainly be out of a job - there is no need to delete records that conflict the current narrative. It doesn't matter how much is recorded and documented, a politician can still stand up and make statistics up on the spot, can change the rhetoric and the promises from one day to the next and despite all the evidence idiots will believe he is honest, that he "just a blunt, clumsy guy" that he "was only joking", or that "media spin" is interfering with the lies that come direct from his mouth (or twitter account.)

claig · 25/11/2016 09:16

I think Orwell was more disillusioned with Big Brother and the thoughtcrime police.

Orwell would have loved Trump and his speaking truth to power and mocking of Big Brother and the media who received a well-deserved dressing down from Trump on Monday. As Orwell said, and which fits Trump and Trump fans to a tee,

"Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act."

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Kaija · 25/11/2016 09:18

There is nothing truthful about Trump.

claig · 25/11/2016 09:24

'Although as clever as Orwell was, he never saw Post-Truth coming'

Of course he did. He called it the Ministry of Truth where they rewrote history, changed words in articles that did not conform with establishment orthodoxy. The Ministry was most probably staffed by teams straight outta Oxbridge who werr SPADs and never had a real job.

In 1984, Big Brother won and Winston was defeated and Orwell ended with the elite's dream of "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever"

But Orwell got it wrong because he didn't foresee Wikileaks (countering the Ministry of Truth) and Donald J Trump driving a coach and horses through the elite's lies and sending them scattering to the four corners of the earth. And Orwell never imagined Trump's grinning sidekick, one Nigel Farage, loved by the People's Army, hated by the elites and their lackeys.

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birdsdestiny · 25/11/2016 09:26

But we are not laughing and we are not part of the elite. You use the phrase people's revolution but we are the people. Of course you will say that's democracy but as with Brexit, the Trump wins just leads to a deeply divided society .And still nothing changes. Trump still wealthy, Farage still wealthy, the people not so much. Sounds a biz

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