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Politics

Trump vs Clinton - the final 3 days

1000 replies

claig · 06/11/2016 00:02

Into the final lap now after over 1 year of entertainment, education and excitement. Donald J Trump is nearly there against all expectations.

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Thread gallery
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claig · 10/11/2016 22:17

'I know who they are....'

Please don't tell me, I really don't want to know. The last person who found out now sleeps with the fishes. Wink

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Spinflight · 10/11/2016 22:23

I think you are confusing the self styled elites with the illuminati or some such claig. :)

claig · 10/11/2016 22:29

True, there are concentric circles of power

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Spinflight · 10/11/2016 22:32

Ahhh... Power.

How do we measure power?

SerendipityPhenomenon · 10/11/2016 22:39

Donald Trump is the President of the United States

I think you'll find Barack Obama is the President of the United States.

claig · 10/11/2016 22:41

True, Trump is President Elect

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Badders123 · 10/11/2016 22:49

I am thinking more and more that actually trump didn't want this...
He couldn't look Obama the eye today in the Oval Office...
He looks like Gove and bojo did after their "victory"

Badders123 · 10/11/2016 22:51

...and the media banned from his flight...interesting!

Shiningexample · 10/11/2016 22:51

who ARE these people?Do you have to be a politician?
I should think not!
a true mr/ms big would never get his or her hands dirty, the 'kingpins' tend not to reveal themselves surely?

Spinflight · 10/11/2016 22:52

They don't get on.

claig · 10/11/2016 22:54

"Nigel Farage to be Donald Trump's go-between amid claims Special Relationship with US is faltering

Ministers will use Nigel Farage as an intermediary to build bridges with Donald Trump following accusations that the “special relationship” is faltering in the wake of his election.

The Telegraph understands that ministers will be forced to seek Mr Farage’s advice because they have no links to the President-elect’s inner circle.
...

But the delay in talking to the President-elect led to accusations that the Government had undermined its relationship with Washington by failing to anticipate Mr Trump's success.

There is also concern in government that relations have been damaged by rows which took place before the election.

Mr Farage - who joined Mr Trump on the campaign trail - told the Telegraph the relationship between Mr Trump's Republican Party and the Conservatives has "completely broken down".

It is understood that Liam Fox, the International Trade Secretary who has links to the Republican Party, now intends to speak to Mr Farage before attempting to hold talks with senior Trump advisers.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/nigel-farage-to-be-donald-trumps-go-between-amid-claims-special/

It makes sense because Trum and real conservatives in America like Farage. They would get on with our moderniser conservatives, but my guess is that Farage gets along well.

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claig · 10/11/2016 22:56

'a true mr/ms big would never get his or her hands dirty, the 'kingpins' tend not to reveal themselves surely?'

Exactly. The real Mr Bigs are the ones behind the curtain pulling the strings. If you know their names, it ain't them.

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Spinflight · 10/11/2016 23:04

Claig, you are talking errant nonsense and boogeyman fairytales.

With the sole exception of the Catholic Church ( I always assume they are up to something but never are) the maps of power and influence in the world are quite well known.

Secret societies and strings pulled across modernity are so last century.

claig · 10/11/2016 23:40

'Claig, you are talking errant nonsense and boogeyman fairytales.'

I don't think so. Do you think Tony Blair or George Bush were the most powerful people in the country?

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claig · 10/11/2016 23:41

'the maps of power and influence in the world are quite well known.'

What are they?

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Chris1234567890 · 10/11/2016 23:52

Here,

I googled, to avoid a couple of hours debate.......

"Elite (from late 18th century French élite), is a term that originates from Latin eligere (“to choose, elect”). In political and sociological theory for a small group of powerful people that controls a disproportionate amount of wealth, privilege or political power in a society."

All I would add is, for the elite to exist, they have to have an 'underclass'. The underclass being the polar opposite of the elite, and with alien moral values. The two go hand in hand. They utterly co-exist. So to broadly answer your question, its possibly easier to see the 'elite' as the polar opposite of the 'underclass'. That ensures the views and opinions, the wisdom and judgment of the elite, is seen to be valid and therefore influential, whilst at the same time securing wealth and power. The views and opinions therefore of the underclass are not.

To ensure the survival of the underclass, it cant be solely based on economic status. It has to be morally degenerate too. You can be sure, that the 'elite' is alive and well, for as long as Jeremy Kyle, Benefits Street and a whole host of 'underclass' reinforcing tv bombards us.

Ive over simplified, but you must have an unequal society, to have a ruling class. It was so much simpler when the rules for the 'elite' were biological. Today, we still struggle with replacing 'biological' in our desire for an unequal society, but 'meritocracy' seems to be the buzz word of choice. Same system, different rules. But note, meritocracy aligns itself with success. The underclass therefore, must be the failures.

Begs a question, how would we rule if we did have a truly equal society? And that would be, a letter drops on your doormat to tell you you are called up for public office for the next 4 years. Now that, IMO, would be democracy.

claig · 11/11/2016 00:00

'a letter drops on your doormat to tell you you are called up for public office for the next 4 years. Now that, IMO, would be democracy.'

It would probably be an improvement on the "career politicians"

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fourmummy · 11/11/2016 00:22

Begs a question, how would we rule if we did have a truly equal society?

It depends how you define 'equal'. The one thing that is unavoidable in any society is a decision -making class. These are the 'elites' because they have privileges that others don't. In this way, society can never be truly equal because there will always be a privileged decision making class. All societal structures hang on this scaffolding, whether communism, capitalism, theocracy, feudalism, etc.. They all offer different explanations for the unequal social structure, e.g., lying (everyone is equal), appeals to divinity, inequality is natural, etc.. but the one constant is that all of them will have an elite, privileged decision making group of people. We know of no society (beyond the tiny bands or tribes) that has not had this elite layer. The key challenge for any society is, of course, how to handle this inevitable inequality.

claig · 11/11/2016 00:30

Yes, in principle there is nothing wrong with elites because some people are more capable for certain roles etc. The problem is that power corrupts so some level of transparency and accountability is needed or you get charidees and floundations and pay for play etc and you get a situation where some elites think they are above the law and that the law does not apply to them

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Chris1234567890 · 11/11/2016 00:36

which is why, fourmummy, the only truly democratic answer, is the letter through the door evry 4 years. Anything else, creates a 'decision making' class.

fourmummy · 11/11/2016 00:58

the only truly democratic answer, is the letter through the door every 4 years

It's an interesting proposition but no-one's ever done it. It may be that we are back to the relativism issue - whose decision is the right one? Whose perspective do we accept as 'right' or law (given that societies need some kind of continuity to avoid being in a constant state of flux)? I suspect that the best we can do is shrink the inequality to a minimum by having good decision makers who are sensible and not self-serving. There can be wise and reasonable elites so these are not bad in themselves - but there'll always be elites. Revolutions happen when the elites are very bad.

Spinflight · 11/11/2016 01:29

"Begs a question, how would we rule if we did have a truly equal society?"

Pretty close to the definition of philosophy..

The problem with the definition, though it is a good one, is power. Power is subjective. For instance charisma is a relative neologism when applied to leadership. Some people can just lead and we describe them as charismatic but don't necessarily understand how they do it.

Even in the extremes power is subjective. You can't read a presidential or prime ministerial memoir without noticing it's more about what they couldn't do. Politics is the art of the possible but even when our leaders are sure that they know what to do they are generally frustrated in some way or other. Many presidents have described the office as a bit like being in a straightjacket.

Still people recognise power and roughly agree on who has it. For instance in New York recently a real estate broker was listed as the most powerful person, above Michael Bloomberg though he undoubtedly has power. In a very crowded and expensive city merely being at the centre of things, at the nexus of power is in itself a source of power.

In general we tend to underestimate our own power and over estimate other's. Take income, if you earn over £30k a year then believe it or not you're probably in the top 1% worldwide. Wealth is more skewed, you'd need well over £500k. To be top 1% in America alone you'd have to be a multi millionaire.

Also people intuit and feel shifts of power more than power itself. Anyone sane would consider the media to be people in a unique position of power, though with readership and viewers falling, people increasingly ignoring the dead tree press and events such as the one we just witnessed you won't find many journalists who think they are powerful, quite the opposite.

MP's sound powerful, though in actuality they just toe the party line which robs them of the power their constituents think they have. CEOs have power, but it's constrained by their need to act in favour of shareholders or the workforce.

People aspire to power so they look up enviously, and rarely down to realise where they actually are. Draw a triangle and ask someone where they fit in the pyramid of power and they tend to put themselves on the bottom when in actuality merely being in the UK puts you somewhere in the top 10%.

Power and influence though is something which flows out from a centre. A capital city, a journal, a company, it's all about interpersonal relationships. A word in the ear of someone who has power can fix your problem, much easier if they live close and you know them.

So where is the most powerful place on earth? Almost certainly New York. Does that make a real estate broker the most powerful person on earth? No, she's an enabler. New York billionaires might covet thy neighbour's apartment, she can enable that which allows them to display their power in a prestige location. They have different priorities for their power.

What about Washington DC, surely they feel all powerful. Well no, even in financial terms. The vast majority who work vaguely for the government aren't millionaires and the local schools etc are ferociously expensive. Those who advise the President maybe? Do they feel powerful? Again no, their primary function is actually to take a bullet for him whether they advised on the matter or not.

So who does that leave? Who actually has power unconstrained by responsibility? The lobbyists in short. Greasy haired non governmental wonks whose job is to get the ear of someone in power and represent a client, usually a large firm or a government. Their power is purely through their contacts, they know the chair of the paperclip counting committee and a steel maker wants to get a government paperclip contract.

Of course they have to be close to the politicians who matter, and politicians like getting elected to stuff, so as well as being lobbyists they also fundraise for them, organise them and help out with their political parties. The steel maker will pay them a fee, but a hefty donation to their favourite super pac would grease the wheels more.

Of course it goes beyond that. Cousin with the same surname arrested for assault? That journo from the x network will keep it quiet if we give him an exclusive. I'm interviewing x candidate tomorrow, what would you like me to ask him? That journalist will get some favour in the future, access or tipped off on a story. 3rd presidential debate next week and I know the questions that will be asked, same favours returned. Your candidate in a caucus struggling against another candidate from the same party? Lets leak this story, doesn't matter if it's true.

In Obama's first term green subsidies worth hundreds of billions of dollars were given out, how much would the recipient firms pay in fees and donations to secure a slice of that?

How much would Wall Street pay to ensure they'd get bailouts worth simply staggering amounts of money? Who knows but they chose Obama's cabinet for him.

What if one of these lobbyists was actually an ex President?

How much would Qatar pay for a world cup to host? How much would they pay to ensure a gas pipeline between themselves and Europe? How much would the Russians pay, as they currently supply Europe, to ensure that Qatar couldn't possibly build a pipeline through Syria? Now imagine that Qatar and Iran share the same gas field and whoever gets it out of the ground first gets the lions share of the money. How about if this gas field were the largest deposit of hydrocarbons yet found on the planet? £100 billion a year production and ramping up by the month?

Well these questions are paid for as much in blood as in money, but that a different but related topic.

Oh and all the above is writ large in the wikileaks emails...

Spinflight · 11/11/2016 04:08

Lol, hillary will have another reason to spit her cornflakes out tomorrow.

Wikileaks has just called for the closure of their investigation into Assange due to the 'Clinton precedent' where they publicly stated that they had to show intent to mishandle information.

Pluto30 · 11/11/2016 04:20

I'm still ashamed that my own government (and Assange's government) hasn't done shit to help him. Dickheads.

Hopefully Trump does do something about this and the Edward Snowden situation.

Spinflight · 11/11/2016 05:07

Grr...

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